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James Hoard

Albania- Wied era medals

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Dear Sirs,

Through you, I found the site http://www.onderscheidingenforum.nl. In this site, I found a list of the Dutch officers decorated with the Black Eagle Order. According to this list, are 13 Dutch officers decorated with the class of Officer of BEO. But from the other side, to the Ordens Lexikon of Klietmann, does exist any Dutch decorated with the Officer of BEO. How can resolve this controversial?

Decorated with Officer Clas of BEO, according to Klietmann:

Date:

1

A German officer.

04.08.1914

2

Dr. R. Wendelmuth, German historian.

1918

3

Archivrat Schoppl, Regensburg, German Historian of Wied.

1923

4

A German, staff person (diploma of 1921).

08.1914

5

" (diploma of 1923).

01.09.1914

6

An official of the Princess Schonburg-Waldenburg Court.

1919

7

"

"

8

A German Jurist.

1920

9

A Wiener scholar.

"

10

An Albanian poet, author of Albanian national anthem.

1921

Regards,

Artan

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To my understanding, there is no record of any Wied Albanian military merit medal heretofore.

Precisely why it is of such interest and needs proper and further investigation.

Court Marshals are usually sticklers for protocol and indeed the arbiters of these matters. They are unlikely to be calling awards by totally different names just for the hell of it or through a fit of absentmindedness. Hard to fathom how a Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle could be called something else by such a person.

My observation about the use of French was the appointment was to an Albanian from the Albanian speaking Marshal of the Court. One can imagine a French language document to a foreigner, but a little odd in this particular case.

James

Cheers,

James

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Dear Artan

I think it is safe to say that Klietmann is not completely accurate.

Does he include Heaton-Armstrong or the Khedive of Egypt in his lists?

I have a few other doubts about information about the BE Order in general. For example, was the first class of the Order really called Grand "Cross", when most of the Albanian people were Muslim and the use of such a term would have caused offence? Clearly, trouble was taken over the design so that none of the insignia were based on a cross.

James

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Dear Artan

I think it is safe to say that Klietmann is not completely accurate.

Does he include Heaton-Armstrong or the Khedive of Egypt in his lists?

I have a few other doubts about information about the BE Order in general. For example, was the first class of the Order really called Grand "Cross", when most of the Albanian people were Muslim and the use of such a term would have caused offence? Clearly, trouble was taken over the design so that none of the insignia were based on a cross.

James

My dear poor Mr. Hoard,

You are very European people to comprehend what Albania was. The Prime minister of Wied, Turhan pascia Permeti, spoke in French with the Prince, in Turkish with his ministers and the Albanians, in Persian with his staff and in Italian or French with the diplomatic corp. Generally the cultured Albanians of that period, spoke between us in French or in Turkish.

You use a very sounding title of ?Marshal of the Court?, but you forgot that this person was a simple Turkish-Albanian bey.

I agree with you, for the lisle of Klietmann. No, he does include in his list Heaton-Armstrong, but include the secretary of Khedive of Egypt for Grand Officer Class.

King Zog for his Orders of Besa and Skanderbeg, don?t use the word ?Grand Cross? but ?Grand Star? (Yll i Madh). However I think that to the Prince was not presented the problem of the word ?cross?, because he had much more serious problems during his troublous days in Durr?s and because only two Albanians received the class of Grand Cross (both of them Muslims).

Ps. Dear 922F, please help me to convince Mr. Hoard that ?Military Medal? is the same with ?Medal of the Black Eagle Order?.

Best regards to all,

Artan

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Dear Artan

I think it is safe to say that Klietmann is not completely accurate.

Does he include Heaton-Armstrong or the Khedive of Egypt in his lists?

I have a few other doubts about information about the BE Order in general. For example, was the first class of the Order really called Grand "Cross", when most of the Albanian people were Muslim and the use of such a term would have caused offence? Clearly, trouble was taken over the design so that none of the insignia were based on a cross.

James

My dear poor Mr. Hoard,

You are very European people to comprehend what Albania was. The Prime minister of Wied, Turhan pascia Permeti, spoke in French with the Prince, in Turkish with his ministers and the Albanians, in Persian with his staff and in Italian or French with the diplomatic corp. Generally the cultured Albanians of that period, spoke between us in French or in Turkish.

You use a very sounding title of ?Marshal of the Court?, but you forgot that this person was a simple Turkish-Albanian bey.

I agree with you, for the lisle of Klietmann. No, he does include in his list Heaton-Armstrong, but include the secretary of Khedive of Egypt for Grand Officer Class.

King Zog for his Orders of Besa and Skanderbeg, don?t use the word ?Grand Cross? but ?Grand Star? (Yll i Madh). However I think that to the Prince was not presented the problem of the word ?cross?, because he had much more serious problems during his troublous days in Durr?s and because only two Albanians received the class of Grand Cross (both of them Muslims).

Ps. Dear 922F, please help me to convince Mr. Hoard that ?Military Medal? is the same with ?Medal of the Black Eagle Order?.

Best regards to all,

Artan

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My dear poor Mr. Hoard,

You are very European people to comprehend what Albania was. The Prime minister of Wied, Turhan pascia Permeti, spoke in French with the Prince, in Turkish with his ministers and the Albanians, in Persian with his staff and in Italian or French with the diplomatic corp. Generally the cultured Albanians of that period, spoke between us in French or in Turkish.

You use a very sounding title of "Marshal of the Court", but you forgot that this person was a simple Turkish-Albanian bey.

I agree with you, for the lisle of Klietmann. No, he does include in his list Heaton-Armstrong, but include the secretary of Khedive of Egypt for Grand Officer Class.

King Zog for his Orders of Besa and Skanderbeg, don't use the word "Grand Cross" but "Grand Star" (Yll i Madh). However I think that to the Prince was not presented the problem of the word "cross", because he had much more serious problems during his troublous days in Durr?s and because only two Albanians received the class of Grand Cross (both of them Muslims).

Dear Artan,

This "simple" Albanian Bey communicated with other Albanians in French!

As for the title "Grand Cross". Yes, Wilhlem had other things on his mind after her got to Albania but for all of his time before he got there he spent on designing orders and uniforms. Heaton-Armstrong complains about him wasting time on these matters. If one looks at the design of the Black Eagle clearly an good deal of thought went into making sure it was not based on a cross.

By the way, what are the Albanian terms for the other grades?

With all good wishes

James

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Dear Artan,

This "simple" Albanian Bey communicated with other Albanians in French!

As for the title "Grand Cross". Yes, Wilhlem had other things on his mind after her got to Albania but for all of his time before he got there he spent on designing orders and uniforms. Heaton-Armstrong complains about him wasting time on these matters. If one looks at the design of the Black Eagle clearly an good deal of thought went into making sure it was not based on a cross.

By the way, what are the Albanian terms for the other grades?

With all good wishes

James

Dear James,

The Classes of the orders in Albanian, during the period of King Zog and King V-E III, were:

1. Grand Cross: Kordon i Madh me Yll (Grand Cordon with Star).

2. Grand Officer: Oficer i Madh.

3. Commander: Kumandar.

4. Officer: Oficer.

5. Knight: Kalores.

Regards,

Artan

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Dear James,

The Classes of the orders in Albanian, during the period of King Zog and King V-E III, were:

1. Grand Cross: Kordon i Madh me Yll (Grand Cordon with Star).

2. Grand Officer: Oficer i Madh.

3. Commander: Kumandar.

4. Officer: Oficer.

5. Knight: Kalores.

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Precisely why it is of such interest and needs proper and further investigation.

Court Marshals are usually sticklers for protocol and indeed the arbiters of these matters. They are unlikely to be calling awards by totally different names just for the hell of it or through a fit of absentmindedness. Hard to fathom how a Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle could be called something else by such a person.

My observation about the use of French was the appointment was to an Albanian from the Albanian speaking Marshal of the Court. One can imagine a French language document to a foreigner, but a little odd in this particular case.

James

Cheers,

James

Dear Hoard,

The same Heaton-Armstron who was secretary of the Black Eagle Order, call him simply ?Albanian Eagle Order? in his book (!!!).

Regards,

Artan

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Dear Hoard,

The same Heaton-Armstron who was secretary of the Black Eagle Order, call him simply "Albanian Eagle Order" in his book (!!!).

Regards,

Artan

Artan,

Sorry, but what is your point exactly?

Are you saying that the order wasn't Albanian or that his book is an official document conferring a decoration on a recipient?

Cheers,

James

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Artan,

Sorry, but what is your point exactly?

Are you saying that the order wasn't Albanian or that his book is an official document conferring a decoration on a recipient?

Cheers,

James

Dear James,

My exact point of view is that: We can not check accuracy on the terms used during the six months of Wied in Albania. If we find used the term ?Military Medal? instead of ?Black Eagle Medal? or, ?Albanian Eagle? instead of ?Black Eagle? this should not be understood as another medal or order, but as simply inaccuracy.

The same reasoning can applies to the Babilonia of languages spoken in Durres at that moment.

By the way, can you tell me what the hell of language is speaking in this picture the Prusian prince of Wied with an aborigine of mountains of Albania?

Regards,

Artan

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Dear James,

My exact point of view is that: We can not check accuracy on the terms used during the six months of Wied in Albania. If we find used the term "Military Medal" instead of "Black Eagle Medal" or, "Albanian Eagle" instead of "Black Eagle" this should not be understood as another medal or order, but as simply inaccuracy.

The same reasoning can applies to the Babilonia of languages spoken in Durres at that moment.

By the way, can you tell me what the hell of language is speaking in this picture the Prusian prince of Wied with an aborigine of mountains of Albania?

Dear Artan,

The way that I see it, there is a world of difference between an official document of appointment and a book written for a generalist foreign readership. At least in the latter case one can easily make out from the use of the words Eagle, Order and Albanian that the writer is talking of the Order of the Black Eagle. In the former case there isn't a single word to link the two, only pure guesswork.

Cheers,

James

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Just to keep this thread alive with Wied era stuff, back in 2005, an eBay seller had several pieces of BE insignia in a large red case that looked like it could have been an award case, but who knows. I saved off the photos for my own reference purposes, so I thought I could share them here. I don't recall who had this set of insignia otherwise I would give them credit here...

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Here's the reverse of one of the stars (not sure which) and the case:

Dear Eric,

I am very happy for the photos you have sent. I also think that the box is not original. I am very interested in any contribute for this order and generally for Wied era. I send you my set of BEO. A part of them are find here in Albania, the others in different fairs in Italy. Thenk you again for the photos.

Regards,

Artan

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Hi Artan:

Thanks for your comments! That is a lovely collection of the BEO you have! I have a Silver Medal and the Accession Medal, but most likely, I expect these photos and threads like this is as close as I will come to the BEO.

Here's a better pair of photos of the badge that was in that same lot on eBay.

Side note to everyone: If these photos are from someone here, let me know and I will give them proper attribution/credit.

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Hi Artan:

Thanks for your comments! That is a lovely collection of the BEO you have! I have a Silver Medal and the Accession Medal, but most likely, I expect these photos and threads like this is as close as I will come to the BEO.

Here's a better pair of photos of the badge that was in that same lot on eBay.

Side note to everyone: If these photos are from someone here, let me know and I will give them proper attribution/credit.

Dear Eric,

Thank you for these pics. If you have additional photos of this wonderful set, please send to us.

Regards,

Artan

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Hello All,

I am back in connectivity for a while and want to thank everyone for their comments and illustrations on this thread. On the question of exactly what the document Artan posted that apparently confers a Wied military merit award actually means, I agree with Artan's interpretation. That is, it represents an award of a Black Eagle medal.

Why? The very fluid conditions during the Prince's time in Albania, especially at the end, mitigated against accurate record keeping. Dr. Klietmann noted this several times in letters and his article that appeared both in his sales lists and the "Medal Collector". It explains why even with his access to Wied family records, his awardee list is faulty. {N.B. Twice, at least, his attention was directed to the awards to Dutchmen. He never added them to his list but then the Ordens Lexicon number was never reprinted.}

The apparent change in court letterhead illustrated earlier in this thread suggests a very fluid and not necessarily consistent use. This hints that "correct" forms were not absolutely followed.

The document is signed by the Court Chancellor and not the Orders Secretary or the Prince. Does this mean it is an "out-of-bounds" item? A personal favor? Both somewhat strange due to the position of the awardee but perhaps possible. A more likely explanation is that it was a "rush job."

Another factor was the apparent much wider distribution of Black Eagle and Arrival medals noted in Heaton-Armstrong. If Heaton-Armstrong was actually the Orders Secretary and received the order, no document exists in his family archive. Documents apparently accompanied some awards to foreign soldiers, consuls and diplomats but not all. It is unknown whether a document for Abbas exists in Egyptian archives. Diplomas for most of his decorations survive in the Abdan Palace collection but two researchers have told me they could not locate an Albanian Black Eagle document there.

Next is the posit of a heretofore completely unknown Wied military merit medal. While such an award may be possible, it appears not probable. Remember that Wied seems to have been a protocol stickler with decrees for everything from court ceremonial to the Order statute, from the "Crown Prince's flag design" to the style of trouser trim. For a military award to exist without documentation or physical evidence appears strange.

Most tellingly to me, is the circumstance of finding of this document together with a Black Eagle medal.

Frankly, I am happily surprized that any documents held in private hands in Albania over the past 95 years at all survived.

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Dear 922,

An interesting and thought provoking post but 'off mark' on a number of points.

Firstly, one can hardly claim that the Prince of Wied was a protocol stickler in defence of an argument in favour of imprecision!

Imprecision is the only basis on which one could contend that the military medal mentioned in the award document was the medal of the order of the Black Eagle. There is no prima facie evidence to connect the two decorations whatsoever.

It isn't at all surprising that documents were not found in the Wied family archives in Neuwied. Prince Wilhelm settled in Rumania and became a Rumanian citizen in the 1930's. His wife's family was descended from the Cantacuzeno family of Moldova and she owned landed property there. I think their principal residence was Fantanele Castle, where one supposes the Prince would have had his papers and belongings. They may still survive there or in some other Rumanian archive, unless lost during the Communist era when his daughter was sent to and perished in a gulag.

There is no certificate or record of the award to Abbas Hilmi at the Abidin Palace because he was in exile in Turkey at the time. He had been ill when war broke out in 1914 and was recuperating in Istanbul when the British proclaimed a protectorate and Hussein Kamal was installed as Sultan. Abbas Hilmi continued to be recognised as the "legitimate" ruler of Egypt by the Central Powers throughout WW1 and received several decorations in that capacity. The only records regarding Abbas Hilmi's awards at Abidin are those that concern the awards he received before 1914.

All the letterheads prove is that the palace may have had a shortage of stationery.

I find it quite astonishing that people can compose whole posts demonstrating fluid situations or imprecision, and provide a host of reasons why correct form was not followed, but cannot admit the possibility that a hitherto unknown decoration may have existed and that it may be worth further investigation.

Cheers

James

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Dear 922,

An interesting and thought provoking post but 'off mark' on a number of points.

Firstly, one can hardly claim that the Prince of Wied was a protocol stickler in defence of an argument in favour of imprecision!

Imprecision is the only basis on which one could contend that the military medal mentioned in the award document was the medal of the order of the Black Eagle. There is no prima facie evidence to connect the two decorations whatsoever.

It isn't at all surprising that documents were not found in the Wied family archives in Neuwied. Prince Wilhelm settled in Rumania and became a Rumanian citizen in the 1930's. His wife's family was descended from the Cantacuzeno family of Moldova and she owned landed property there. I think their principal residence was Fantanele Castle, where one supposes the Prince would have had his papers and belongings. They may still survive there or in some other Rumanian archive, unless lost during the Communist era when his daughter was sent to and perished in a gulag.

There is no certificate or record of the award to Abbas Hilmi at the Abidin Palace because he was in exile in Turkey at the time. He had been ill when war broke out in 1914 and was recuperating in Istanbul when the British proclaimed a protectorate and Hussein Kamal was installed as Sultan. Abbas Hilmi continued to be recognised as the "legitimate" ruler of Egypt by the Central Powers throughout WW1 and received several decorations in that capacity. The only records regarding Abbas Hilmi's awards at Abidin are those that concern the awards he received before 1914.

All the letterheads prove is that the palace may have had a shortage of stationery.

I find it quite astonishing that people can compose whole posts demonstrating fluid situations or imprecision, and provide a host of reasons why correct form was not followed, but cannot admit the possibility that a hitherto unknown decoration may have existed and that it may be worth further investigation.

Cheers

James

Dear Sirs

I have the impresion that this thread is going to be from "discourse for Wied" in "discourse for us". I believe that this thread (which has now filled 4 pages) is a real contribution to this interesting Order. I think that never before have been brought together so many documents on it, like here. For this reason, I prefer to bring here another document, with the hope that everyone (who has the ability) to do the same.

Regards to all,

Artan

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E e e e e j j j j j !

Nobody else has anything to add on the Black Eagle Order topics?

Regards,

Artan

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Artan!

faleminderit. thank you indeed for your contribution to this topic and bringing more light to this medal.

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Hello all:

Last year, a movie came out called "Time of the Comet" (Koha e Kometes) that was set during Wilhelm's reign and is even portrayed in it. In the movie's beginning, there are a couple of segments of original footage recording Wilhelm on his ship and his arrival. It's amazing seeing him in film!

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Recently sold at auction (Andreas Thies)

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Recently sold at auction (Andreas Thies)

Dear Bob,

This is not a medal of Prince Wied, but the Medal ?TO MY FRIENDS?, created by Ahmed Zog as President of Albania in 1925 and given until 1930, in gold, silver and bronze.

Here attached two pieces of my collection.

Best regards,

Artan

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