December Thies Auction

[Paul C]

Has anyone in the US received their catalogue for the December Theis auction?

[Wild Card]

Hi Paul,

Yes, I received mine about a week and a half ago. There isn't anything that you would want in there though - just kidding.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

P.S. Did you get out to the Bismarck museum?

[HeikoGrusdat]

I think I need to do a bank robbery to get all the money I would need for the next Thies auction.... great pieces from a great collection!!!!

Heiko

[Paul C]

Now I am really pissed! When I was at the show in Gunzenhausen I paid Theis 80 euros for a 1 year subscription. Yes, I did make it to the Bismark Estate and it was fantastic!

[Ed_Haynes]

It is online at http://www.andreas-thies.de/ is you can tolerate wading through the website and the PDF files.

As it includes chunks of the George Seymour and Eric Ludvigsen collections, what is there is predictably pretty, and pricey. Some items (documented 1813 EK 1?) seem too good to be true and forum wisdom would probably be welcomed.

Nothing for me, but lovely eye-candy for sure.

Edited November 24, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Von Blomberg's medabar is quite the thing.

[Guest Rick Research]

I've got xeroxes of a lot of these from the Cave Days Before Computers. Many once happy memories of thrashing out identities on some of those, long distance over the phone. Sigh.

Continuing what is to me heart-breaking carelessness, THIS round of offerings has once again been "de-identified" in most cases, items "lost" from groups (you would THINK that it was rather... difficult... to misplace or overlook von Mackensen's matching miniatures chain etc but noooooooooo), photos and award documents that went with groups... unaccounted for, ribbon bars that went with medal bars... nowhere to be seen, breast stars and commander grade Orders with attribution... forevermore "anonymous."

What you see on offer are splendid BITS AND PIECES of awesome, wondrous INTACT groups-- which Thies has just undone through sheer incompetent stupidity. It's like smashing priceless Chinese porcelain to sell the pieces on eBay. For those of us lucky to have seen the collection intact in situ in all its glory, this is a ghastly example of how a world-class museum-worthy lifetime's labor of love can be turned into far, far less than the whole when the wrong person is designated to "take care" of it afterwards.

NONE of us will EVER be ale to even fantasize about putting a collection together like this again-- those days are gone forever. It's made sadder by being handled this way.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

He's cutting his own commission by being stupid? Not to mention as you say you might get a piece from a tremendous figure in history that could have been identified as such and is now lost forever. What total stupidity. Anyone sending to this maniac is not doing themselves, their estate, any service.

[Stogieman]

No, he's doing ahat the trend is amongst most auctioneers and dealers. Split it into pieces and maximize the proceeds, ergo maximize the commission/buyer's premium. When one considers this is 40+ years of hard work, tireless research and real history being destroyed forever...........

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

A couple of very important points have been raised here. So important that they should almost be posted separately because they apply to all who collect - be it ribbon bars, knight?s crosses or beer cans.

As many of you have probably noticed, collections have a way of growing. What started out as innocent acquisitions here and there are all of a sudden demanding their own wall or even room! Well, fellow collector, no one but you really has a clue as to what?s there - spouses, children, favorite nephews - no one. Who else knows that this ribbon bar here really does go with that medal bar over there (no not that one, the one next to it)?

Now the second part. If or when your collection goes to auction, the auctioneer has one fundamental responsibility; and that is to realize the highest prices for the items consigned to him. Maximum commissions are the result of maximum bids; it?s that simple.

So, unless you have clearly documented the fact that this ribbon bar goes with that medal bar, and that you wish for them to be sold together, they may wind up going their separate ways at auction - after you have gone your separate way. Please make sure that your instructions are clear, up to date and readily accessible to your survivors or estate executor. Thank you.

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

That is entirely true and I suspect most of us are in exactly the same boat. My documents are all with my documents, photos with photos. Medal bars and ribbon bars tend to be wrapped up together, but for economy of space, "like is stored with like" and Mixed Media are not.

I know where everything in my collection is... but no one else would.

In the old days, I xeroxed things. These days, I scan things. But what GOOD does that do, if a non-collector does not KNOW to look up That Wuzzit by its correct name? NOBODY is going to go through 23,418 scans trying to match up each item one at a time.

I suggest, just as in scuba-diving, have a "collecting buddy" who is able and willing to "translate" your collection, and know what should go with what and what DOES go with what.

[David Gregory]

I am not sure what posterity wil do with all my "stuff", but for the sake of self-preservation I tag almost everything, try to store groups together and have started cataloguing everything I have acquired so far.

Quite apart from helping anyone else to sort out what is there, it also helps me to find things that would otherwise vanish into storage boxes and files and never see the light of day for months or even years.

At least with the Thies auctions most buyers are aware of which collections the items came from, so collectors who do their homework will be able to target former groups if they want to. A complete lack of interest on the part of most sellers and woefully inadequate images or descriptions usually make it impossible to join up the dots, let alone see them.

[W McSwiggan]

I suggest, just as in scuba-diving, have a "collecting buddy" who is able and willing to "translate" your collection, and know what should go with what and what DOES go with what.

I'll can help you out, Rick old pal!

In fact - why not send your stuff over now just in case...

Never know when some bird of prey might get ya!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I think we all have a huge collection of electronic docs and pics. It's time we all took the time to print it out into a single coherent paper document that can easily identify what you have, the value today, yesterday, tomorrow, some idea for survivors, and make it known and readily available to survivors. Now if those pieces had been engraved...

[Biro]

Now if those pieces had been engraved...

Any developments in 'that' department Brian?

[Stogieman]

Only a couple pieces I will chase in this auction. Nice stuff though!

[Wild Card]

He's cutting his own commission by being stupid? Not to mention as you say you might get a piece from a tremendous figure in history that could have been identified as such and is now lost forever. What total stupidity. Anyone sending to this maniac is not doing themselves, their estate, any service.

Gentlemen,

I feel that I should elaborate on a point made here by Brian, specifically referring to ?...the value today, yesterday, tomorrow...? This can be a real minefield and I speak from some firsthand observations.

Establishing present value on ?low end?, frequently sold, items is relatively easy and can be done with reasonable accuracy; but, it seems that as the rarity importance and perceived value increase, so does the ease with which the actual market value can be set. The auctioneer and cosignor are equally pleased when an item sells for three times estimate and no questions are asked. When, however, that rare piece for which everyone had expectations doesn?t sell the questions arise; and when the item finally sells for 50% of what the deceased said it was worth, everyone wonders what happened.

Well, simply because the deceased absolutely had to have that piece, he just might have overpaid for it; and simply because he was willing to pay that much for it, there must be someone els out there... anywhere... somebody... please... maybe?

I can only advise that both you, fellow collector, and whoever will handle the disposal of your collection have a realistic picture of it?s value and an understanding that anything is worth only what someone else is willing to pay for it. I wish that I could offer an absolute solution to this; but I have seen it happen on a couple of occasions and thought that I should mention it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[HeikoGrusdat]

I just want to say (with a tear in my eyes...) that the prices for my collection area has been really impressive in this auction... Some of the medal bars I was bidding on climbed on the mount everest.... I hope they came into good hands (Claudio...? )

Does anybody know if there is still more stuff to come from these two great collections?

Heiko

[Stogieman]

Hi Heiko, yes there is still some things. Including bits & pieces that should have gone with lots already auctioned off.

[Stogieman]

WildCard has let me know that he's back from the auction. Strongly attended and wonderful things, many with wonderful prices. I'm sure he'll update us all when he's caught up on sleep/jet lag/etc.

[Wild Card]

WildCard has let me know that he's back from the auction. Strongly attended and wonderful things, many with wonderful prices. I'm sure he'll update us all when he's caught up on sleep/jet lag/etc.

It looks like I have been elected to give a report on the Thies auction which was held this past Saturday. So... this was the third Thies auction that I have attended - the last two (Dec. ?04 & April ?05) being the others.

My expectation that the market has been saturated was heightened by the relatively slow turnout for the Friday preview, until the last couple of hours when the pace really picked up. Attendance on Saturday may have actually exceeded that of the previous two auctions. More than once there were three telephones going at the same item. If anyone wants to take the time to do some counting, I think that we may find a lower percentage of unsold lots in this auction. Rather than something for everybody, it was more like somebody for everything

There were the to be expected ?gee whiz? items like the Black Eagle collar which went for 76,000 euro; but it should be noted that while it went for 52% over estimate, in my opinion, the real excitement was with the many ?lesser? pieces such as the Royal Hohenzollern member?s cross with swords which went for over three times estimate, the W?rttemberg Olga Order, again over three times the estimate and the Saxe-Altenburg fifty year decoration at over five times the estimate.

All in all it was a very successful event; but to me, most importantly, it reflected a strength of diversity in particular interests within the field coupled with an appreciation of rarity over glitz and glitter.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Claudio]

Hi everybody!

It was a pleasure to have met you during the auction Wildcard. I would have loved to speak with you longer, but I had to leave early, because, first of all my budget was already completely used and secondly because I had a long way back to my home (Lugano, about 4 1/2 with the car).

It was really great to see all the items before the auction started. I thought that there wasn't time enough to inspect personally all the items I was interested in, but furtunately I was wrong. It's another feeling to be on place, inspect the medals personally, tough them with my pawns and see how the quality of some enamelled orders was unparalleled. Beautfiful stuff... but unfortunately very expensive.

Therefore I had to concentrate on my field of interest: medal bars! There was enough choice for every type of taste and budget, but I must say the first Seymour's collection Auction was a bit easier for me to get the medal bars I wished at "normal" prices. The problem is also the high commision (20% + 7% VAT!!!). I don't think many were concerned about this aspect, because some desirable items like Meister's spange went more than the double of the reserve/estimated price! (Meister's bar was sold for Eur 17'000.- + 27%!!!).

Another bar that went up more the double of the estimated price was Wedding's medal bar. Beautiful nevertheless; I had the pleasure to have it in my own hands for about 30 seconds. It was, although there was no label on the reverse (backing), a typical Godet medal bar with an uncommon (for Godet) red fabric backing. It was very nicely put together and the metal base was highly vaulted (to follow the shape of the chest). What a spectacle; the bar was estimated Eur 2'000.- and it went for Eur 4'200.-!!! Not bad. Another NCO's Baden Colonial bar went much more than double of the starting bid! Beautiful conditions and great combination of decorations. It was better to be in a museum! I saw for the first time lots of real GOLD orders and many of them impressed me for quality of craftmanship, like a Gold Komturkreuz of the Oldenburg House Order with crown and swords or a beautiful Offizierskreuz with swords and extra light of a W?rttemberg order...

I saw also lots of German dealers (Kai Winkler and Bretzendorfer for example) attending the auction, hoping to get some hot items to be resold on their online catalogues, making a nice profit. I must say they were quite disappointed at the end because almost all the items were sold at quite high prices... so no room for making a lot profit out of them.

I just went for the first time to Thies auction and was surprised to see the room packed with collectors and dealers. I think Thies had quite a successful auction. I can't wait to see his next catalogue; among the pieces that have to come there is also Kaiser Wilhelm II's medal bar... I can only recommend to order the catalogue because of its beautiful colour pictures. I have seen lots of very well known German and International collectors being present at the auction. At the end our collecting community is quite small. Many people very likely know me without having introduced before. It can be nice but on the other hand it's disturbing to think that, especially nowadays, there are many criminals who know quite exactly which collector has something interesting to steal from.

Therefore I prefer also to be a bit more discreet than in the past! Sorry...

Ciao,

Claudio

[fknorr]

It looks like I have been elected to give a report on the Thies auction which was held this past Saturday. So... this was the third Thies auction that I have attended - the last two (Dec. ?04 & April ?05) being the others.

My expectation that the market has been saturated was heightened by the relatively slow turnout for the Friday preview, until the last couple of hours when the pace really picked up. Attendance on Saturday may have actually exceeded that of the previous two auctions. More than once there were three telephones going at the same item. If anyone wants to take the time to do some counting, I think that we may find a lower percentage of unsold lots in this auction. Rather than something for everybody, it was more like somebody for everything

There were the to be expected ?gee whiz? items like the Black Eagle collar which went for 76,000 euro; but it should be noted that while it went for 52% over estimate, in my opinion, the real excitement was with the many ?lesser? pieces such as the Royal Hohenzollern member?s cross with swords which went for over three times estimate, the W?rttemberg Olga Order, again over three times the estimate and the Saxe-Altenburg fifty year decoration at over five times the estimate.

All in all it was a very successful event; but to me, most importantly, it reflected a strength of diversity in particular interests within the field coupled with an appreciation of rarity over glitz and glitter.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Did you pick up anything for yourself?

[Stogieman]

The thing that has been frustrating to me with him is that I have been eMailing for almost a year trying to buy a copy of one of last year's auction catalogue. The one with the flight badges in it. He has absolutely ignored me. OK, if sold out, the courteous thing would be to say so, but hey, what do I know about conducting a proper business??

[Claudio]

Hi Stogie,

I understand your disappointment. Sometimes Thies is very slowly to reply my emails, sometimes he never replies, like once I have asked him on Rick's (evil twin) information about the whereabouts of some pieces (Miniaturkettchen, ribbon bars, documents other decorations) belonging to a specific group that have been lost (?) during the making of his catalogues' inventory. That was very frustrating to me, especially thinking that many of these pieces are forever separated. Personally I think that Thies is a nice person, but as you can imagine, he was very busy on last Saturday and perhaps not to much concerned about "some details" we serious collectors care a lot.

Ciao,

Claudio