Just a little two piece ribbon bar

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is a nice little two piece ribbon bar purchased at the 2004 MAX. The dealers story was that this was for a man that had been awarded the Iron Cross in 1870 and again in WW1. However I knew what it was. Sorry about the huge pic.

Dan Murphy

Edited December 10, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is the back, definitely an unusal color backer. It is actually slightly darker than in this pic.

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Of course this bar is for a unidentified Prussian NCO who recieved the highest Prussian award that could be awarded to an enlisted man, the Militarverdienstkreuz. Also known as the enlisted mans Pour le Merite. This and his EK2 are represented here and he would also have had the EK1 as well. It is unusual that there are no other awards, but perhaps this worn when he put on his "black and white front". Here are examples of the awards displayed with the bar. The MVK has most of it's gilt missing and an odd brown patina but it is an issue piece. The Iron Cross is a "KM".

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is the reverse of the above picture. It would be so much nicer to have a medal bar to go with it. I am happy to just have a real MVK though.

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Of course the MVK is marked. The Wagner "W" is stamped twice making it look like a VW Emblem . The silver content is stamped hanging off the edge so I am not sure if it is 835 or 938. The pic does not help much in this regard.

Dan Murphy

Edited December 10, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Les]

Dan,

The angle of the photo makes comparing your GVK to others difficult. Andreas S-I in a thread on another forum, pointed out the presence of a die-flaw in the ones that Wagner made. I'm too lazy to dig my own of it's storage spot and photograph it at the moment, so I'll "borrow" the photo of the real one posted on that other place, and in a follow up post here, a copy of the counterfeit one posted by Andreas.

[Les]

...and the fake posted by Andreas...

Les

[Paul R]

Very impressive bar, Daniel. Just how rare are the Militarverdienstkreuz? How many were awarded?

[Les]

Very impressive bar, Daniel. Just how rare are the Militarverdienstkreuz? How many were awarded?

Paul,

O'Connors first volume of the aviation awards series discusses this (pages 167-169). In easily remembered numbers, less than 2000 were awarded between the time it was initiated in 1864, to the last award in 1918. Slightly over 1700 were awarded during WWI, with over 95% of the awards made during the last year of the war.

O'Connor provides an intersting comparison between this award (presented to enlisted men only), and the PlM (presented to officers only). During WWI, roughly 12 and a half million enlisted men were in the German army, which he says results in a ratio of one awarded GVK per 7113 enlisted/fighting men. If you then consider the award of 687 PlMs (excluding non-Germans, oak-leaf awards) among 325776 officers in the German army, he states that one GVK is "worth" FIFTEEN PlMs.

Les

[Paul R]

Then the term rare is a definate understatement! You are very luck to have these items. Thank you again for sharing these rare treasures as well as the education!

[Guest Rick Research]

It could also be the mysteriously-why-still-awarded Military Decoration 1st Class Cross, statistically minute and improbable numbers of which also show up for WW1. It has always amazed me that the Prussians never bestirred themselves to create ribbon bar devices for this incredibly noteworthy awards.

Either way, a VERY nice and unquestionably original very rare enlisted man's Wunder Bar indeed! Congratulations!

[Daniel Murphy]

Les,

Here is a montage of the detail of the crosses, I am still no good at this. I can never get them all the same size. Left is my real one, center is the other real one and right is the fake. Notice that the real ones have a ball suspender heavily soldered to the top of the cross in the center. The fake has a wide ring (not even close to the real thing) weakly soldered to the top. It looks like it would snap off under slight pressure. One other thing, look at where the crown rests on top of the cypher. See the gap between the two, it is wider on the right side on the real ones. The gap on the fake is even all the way across. Also look at the bottom of the cypher the "curls" are small on the the real ones. Of course there are spangenstuck pieces made as duplicates for the original owner to put on his medal bar and were made during WW1-30's. These have a simple wire ring as on a EK2 and are usually bronze gilt.

Dan Murphy

Edited December 11, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

May I assume this the die flaw that was reffered to earlier.

Dan Murphy

[Dave Danner]

It could also be the mysteriously-why-still-awarded Military Decoration 1st Class Cross, statistically minute and improbable numbers of which also show up for WW1. It has always amazed me that the Prussians never bestirred themselves to create ribbon bar devices for this incredibly noteworthy awards.

Either way, a VERY nice and unquestionably original very rare enlisted man's Wunder Bar indeed! Congratulations!

If you grant the "black-white" only, it could also be a 1914 EK2 and a colonial Military Decoration 2nd Class. However, I think a longer-serving guy with colonial service would probably be more likely to go by the book and have his other awards.

[Les]

May I assume this the die flaw that was reffered to earlier.

Dan Murphy

Dan,

I've boot legged an accompaning photos from the previous one at the other site. Note the upper left arm, and what appears to be a badly "trimmed" upper diagonal edge? That's the flaw Andreas was talking about. He said this flaw is found on Wagner made pieces.

Les

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is mine. It looks like the finisher removed the whole misformed edge on the one you display. Mine appears to have been left mostly intact. As far as the 1st class Military decoration is concerned, Andreas' site states 917 were awarded. He also breaks down the awards between 1864 and the colonial wars as 888 awarded. That leaves only 29 for WW1, truly rare indeed.

Dan Murphy

Edited December 11, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest Rick Research]

I've never seen ANY explanation as to why the Military Decoration 1sts were given (runner up awards not quite "up" to the GMMC?) but odd commissioned from the ranks types show up in Weimar ranklists with a couple. I've never seen an MEZ2 for World War One, presumably because that would have equated to the Iron Cross.

I thought there were at least two MEZ1 holders in the Reichsheer, but could only find one:

Queckb?rner, shown as Oberleutnant 20.6.18 #158 in 1923-- no awards shown in my "cheapo" edition, but absence of a regiment shows that he was NOT the holder of an Imperial Patent, but rather an ex-NCO with retroactive seniority. In 1924 he is shown as ONLY holding an EK2 and HT, however in 1928 (this is why identifications are tricky, folks) he'd moved up to Hauptmann 1.2.28 #15, still showing only an EK2 and HT, but with the MEZ1 and a Black Wound Badge! Particularly noteworthy in his case, unlike all the other former NCOs-- no enlisted long service award! He was Oberstleutnant 1.8.37 #50 and (with uniform of the Army Gas Protection School), Gasschutzger?tinspizient 2 at the OKH (AHA/GGJ2), and a fossilized Oberst (S) 1.8.40 #5 in May 1944.

[Stogieman]

Here's the MEZ1

[Stogieman]

And the reverse

[Stogieman]

And here's a GMVK

[Stogieman]

And the reverse

[Bob Hunter]

Good information guys! Thanks.

[dond]

And how does this one look?

[dond]

The reverse and markings.

Thanks.

[JensF.]

Here is one I bought as made after 1957 in the BRD.