Austria-Hungary awards and similar ribbons question

[Noor]

Hi,

I know that the Austria-Hungary used same ribbons for different awards - so hard task for especially ribbon bars collectors. But here is one of my new bars what I just got and I am wondering - because the clasp on the second ribbon indicate second award (isn't it?) then is there any chance to ID those ribbons?

Military merit cross, bravery medal, etc?

Edited December 4, 2009 by Noor

[Noor]

Nex question I have regarding the Hessen bar below. Because there is Austrian Order of the Iron Crown in the end, can I be sure that this bar belonged to the officer who served most likely in 25. Reserve-Division (fought in Galicia, Battle of Lvov, Brest-Litovsk) or 48. Reserve-Division (mainly attached to Austro-Hungarian field armies fought in Galicia and the Carpathian Mountains)?

[Claudio]

Hi Timo,

I begin with your Austrian ribbon bar: the first two ribbons were used for several different orders and medals:

- bronzene, silberne und goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren-Denkmünze_für_Tapferkeit_(Österreich)

- Signus Laudis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Merit_Medal_(Austria–Hungary)

- Militärverdienstkreuz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Merit_Cross_(Austria-Hungary)

It was a sort of war/bravery ribbon and could have been used also on the Franz-Josef Order ( http://www.medals.org.uk/austria/austria-empire/austria-empire-008.htm ).

See also this interesting table of Austrian ribbons: http://www.medals.pl/at/at1.htm

The third one is the ribbon belongs to the Karl-Truppenkreuz which is depicted here below (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Truppenkreuz). The cross has been awarded to all those soldiers that have been at least 1 one at the front and participated at least to one major battle.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

The metal clasp device on the ribbon indicates a second awards of the same Tapferkeitsmedaille; this could have been awarded several times.

See also this website of an Austrian dealer:

http://www.sammlerecke.at/orden/ordenmona.html

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Here a typical bar of a high officer who served in Austrian-Hungarian KuK Army and later in the German Wehrmacht. You can notice the repetition of the same ribbons; no way to tell is which is which on a ribbon bar...

Ordensspange des Generalleutnant der Luftwaffe Josef Brunner

(*30.10.1889 - †15.01.1967)

• Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909), E/S

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl. mit Kriegsdekoration

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Signum Laudis in Gold mit Kriegsdekoration

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Karl-Truppenkreuz

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Verwundetenmedaille Laeso Militi, 1-malige Verwundung

• Deutsches Reich 1933-45, LW-Dienstauszeichnung 1. Kl., 25 Jahre (OEK 3857)

• Deutsches Reich 1933-45, LW-Dienstauszeichnung 2. Kl., 18 Jahre (OEK 3858)

• Österreich 1. Republik, 1. Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille

• Ungarn, 1. Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille

Ciao,

Claudio

[Paul C]

Claudio, great bar. It proves that Austrain service time counted toward time for the third reich long service cross. I was not 100% certain of this. Do you have any other medal bars or ribbon bars to Austrians in the Wehrmacht?

[M Hunter]

Here a typical bar of a high officer who served in Austrian-Hungarian KuK Army and later in the German Wehrmacht. You can notice the repetition of the same ribbons; no way to tell is which is which on a ribbon bar...

Ordensspange des Generalleutnant der Luftwaffe Josef Brunner

(*30.10.1889 - †15.01.1967)

• Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909), E/S

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl. mit Kriegsdekoration

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Signum Laudis in Gold mit Kriegsdekoration

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Karl-Truppenkreuz

• Kaiserreich Österreich-Ungarn, Verwundetenmedaille Laeso Militi, 1-malige Verwundung

• Deutsches Reich 1933-45, LW-Dienstauszeichnung 1. Kl., 25 Jahre (OEK 3857)

• Deutsches Reich 1933-45, LW-Dienstauszeichnung 2. Kl., 18 Jahre (OEK 3858)

• Österreich 1. Republik, 1. Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille

• Ungarn, 1. Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille

Ciao,

Claudio

Claudio,

This is a fantastic medal bar. Why did he not get the German Honor Cross 1914-18?

Matt

[dond]

He had to apply for the Hindy and it was only available for a limitted time to do this.

[Noor]

Thanks guys for your answers! I am very familiar of use of similar (war) ribbons by Austrians. My main question was about the clasp and regarding that is there a more chance to quess what type of award it was on the second place (bravery medal probably?) on this ribbon bar.

[Claudio]

@ Paul: this is my only named Austrian medal bar I know of...

@ Matt: I think Brunner just joined the Wehrmacht after the Anschluss, therefore he very likely didn't apply to get one of it, since the Hindenburg crosses were awarded in 1934-35.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Dave Danner]

Thanks guys for your answers! I am very familiar of use of similar (war) ribbons by Austrians. My main question was about the clasp and regarding that is there a more chance to quess what type of award it was on the second place (bravery medal probably?) on this ribbon bar.

An old topic I came across while searching for something else (pictures of Wehrmacht DAs in wear - thanks Claudio!). Regarding the original question, we cannot know for sure but I would say the likeliest combination is (1) a small silver and two bronze bravery medals or (2) a large silver and two small silvers. Less likely, but also possible, is a gold and two silvers.

I recently saw a picture of a former Austrian NCO with the following combination of bravery ribbons:

In his case, it was a Gold Bravery Medal, two Large Silver Bravery Medals, two Small Silver Bravery Medals, and a Merit Cross on the ribbon of the Bravery Medal. As a Wehrmacht officer, he went on to add the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class and the German Cross in Gold.

Regards

[Valter]

I would vote for Dave's 2nd opinion - large silver and two small ones. Two bronze medals were less common. And since there are no long service and yubilee medals, no mobilisation cross, it was probably a private, not an oficer (which could also get MVK + 2 signum laudis, but that would be rare, especially with no other awards). And since no wound medal, he was quite a lucky guy, beside his bravery.