Bavarian Officer's 4-Place Medal Bar

[tyanacek]

Hello to all,

I found this nice medal bar on ebay of all places. I am confident that this is a WWII-Period assembly, but the Kyffhäuserbund Medal in the second position does not really belong on this bar. I would think that it originally had a 1939 KVK2X where the Kyffhäuserbund Medal is now. Maybe this substitution was done by the recipient himself as a way of de-nazifying the bar after WWII? As a WWI vet, he probably had one of these Kyffhäuserbund Medals laying around somewhere and since the ribbon is similar to a 1939 KVK2, the substitution almost seems logical. Impossible to know for sure, though. The Bavarian MVO4X is an early WWI issue by Gebrüder Hemmerle. It has real gold center medallions.

The reverse of the bar is kind of neat, because the backing cloth is long gone. It allows for a nice view of how the bar was assembled.

I have actually given some thought about "restoring" this bar: putting a 1939 KVK2X back on the bar and replacing the cloth backing if for no other reason than to protect the stitching on the reverse. Maybe this would be considered historical vandalism, though, and it is best to leave the bar as is? I welcome any and all opinions in regard to this.

Best regards,

Tom

[tyanacek]

Here is the reverse:

(This would be a great picture for a reference book, except that it helps the fakers too.)

Edited December 14, 2009 by tyanacek

[Ulsterman]

I'd restore it.

Can we see a close up of the backs' edges please?

Have you blacklighted the under ribbons (noncom EK2)?

[tyanacek]

I'd restore it.

Can we see a close up of the backs' edges please?

Have you blacklighted the under ribbons (noncom EK2)?

Hello Ulsterman,

Thanks for your opinion about restoring it.

I do not understand what you mean by "close up of the backs' edges." Are you talking about the edges of the ribbons or what?

The entire medal bar checks ok under ultraviolet radiation. There is no glowing to any of the ribbons nor to the heavy thread. There is no noncom EK2 ribbon used on this bar for the under wrap. The under wrap ribbon is for the next-of-kin 1914-1918 Honor Cross.

Best regards,

Tom

[M Hunter]

Tom,

Are the medals on hooks? If purchased from eBay i would say the seller removed the KVK2 so the bar would not be removed from eBay.

Great find! Congrats!

Matt

[tyanacek]

Tom,

Are the medals on hooks? If purchased from eBay i would say the seller removed the KVK2 so the bar would not be removed from eBay.

Great find! Congrats!

Matt

Hi Matt,

No hooks on this one. The suspension rings are sewn down to the under wrap ribbon. I wish it had hooks: it would make for an easy switcheroo! But your ebay theory is another very plausible explanation.

Best regards,

Tom

[Ulsterman]

Egad-next of kin ribbon! Even rarer these days(now that I squint in this fluorescent office light I can see the red....darn these gray walls and their reflection).

I mean the top of the ribbon along the "edge" of the metal plate. I am looking for a stitching pattern.

[tyanacek]

OK I went and did it. I switched the Kyffhäuserbund Medal with a KVK2X. Please don't think me a vandal!

[tyanacek]

Egad-next of kin ribbon! Even rarer these days(now that I squint in this fluorescent office light I can see the red....darn these gray walls and their reflection).

I mean the top of the ribbon along the "edge" of the metal plate. I am looking for a stitching pattern.

Hello Ulsterman,

I took some closer pictures of the stitching on the back of the ribbons. I hope these pictures are of what you wanted to see.

[tyanacek]

picture 2

[tyanacek]

Not much remaining along the top edge except for some spaced out holes were stitches use to hold the cloth backing in place. From in-hand examination, it looks like there were once diagonal stitches leaning to the right.

[tyanacek]

another picture:

[tyanacek]

last picture:

[tyanacek]

From the small bit of red thread at the upper left of the reverse (blue circle) and the two areas of pinkish-red staining (yellow circles) I would venture to guess that this bar once had a red colored backing cloth.

[Ulsterman]

Exactly what I was attempting to see!

It's definitely not the handiwork of the infamous Austrian!

The bar looks good!

[Claudio]

I think that restoring like this these medal bars is not vandalism, on the contrary, something very honourable, since you corrected it with the exact award which was originally being worn.

I did it also a couple of times... to put back orders which were taken away or replacing those uncorrect or altered for profit.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited December 16, 2009 by Claudio

[saschaw]

I'm totally with Claudio here, the replacing is absolutely okay - though, a KVK2 without swords would have been as possible.

However, I would not replace a backing.

[tyanacek]

Thanks for sharing your opinions, Claudio and Sascha.

Sascha: I think you are right about not trying to replace a cloth backing. I will leave it as is.

Best regards,

Tom

[Valter]

A very nice bar and great restoration job, Tom! I assume you used a period or other legit thread - the repair is impossible to notice!

Ulsterman, sorry for my ignorance, I'm new in imperial field - who is infamous Austrian and how to avoid his fakes?

Regards, Valter

[Ulsterman]

The "infamous Austrian" is a mentally unstable chap who has been producing medal bars for the past 15 years or so. Rumor has it he tried to commit suicide last year but failed, but he clearly is now back and getting better at what he does.

Indeed, he may well be reading this website (and others) to perfect his craft. He is certainly evolving and getting better. He rarely makes mistakes in precedence any more.

Many of his creations appear on eBay.

He now works with Kellys' a reproduction company in Massachusetts.

There are a number of tell-tale "signature" aspects to his bars, including construction and some other subtleties.

I once went on a physical forensics course. One of the things I learned was that most people like a "standard operating procedure". These remembered habits, simple things like the way you butter toast, address an envelope or twist a wire are usually unique and so ingrained as habits, that to NOT do a task the habitual way is actually difficult. This guy has a number of "construction habits".

About 10-12 years ago he produced a large number of "monster" bars many of which had a red felt backing (new too-it glowed). Later he built smaller bars which always seem to have a "come on" aspect-something attractive like an unusual foreign award or two.

Sometimes the combinations are/were outlandish, but over the past 3-4 years some bars produced seem to be legit. until you see the construction "clues". His bars are getting smaller as the market now avoids monster bars except as a "price per medal" buy. If people aren't paying a "spangenbonus", then this guy isn't making a profit as with his imperial stuff he uses common medals. These days he seems to be mixing repro and common awards, which is what I saw on Sunday.

The "Austrian" is not the only faker out there to be sure, but he is the most prolific and easy to spot....so far.

[Valter]

Thank you very much for this detailed response! I hope this guy will succeed in his next attempt... :cheeky:

[M Hunter]

Yes, this is great info to be aware of, thanks Ulsterman!

Matt

[azyeoman]

Exactly what I was attempting to see!

It's definitely not the handiwork of the infamous Austrian!

The bar looks good!

Would it be possible for you to post a list of this man's "traits" along with photos of his work so that us punters can be better armed in the mine field of parade mounted bars. Tom has helped to eductate me enormously and has been a consumate professional educator and collector for my fledgling collection of WWI TR parade mounted bars. (Yes, I was stung but fortunately all of the dealers refunded my money to the last penny!) At any rate, I'm ignorant when it comes to Imperial bars and would appreciate any and all info you could share. Thanks in advance and happy holidays to all!

[tyanacek]

Would it be possible for you to post a list of this man's "traits" along with photos of his work so that us punters can be better armed in the mine field of parade mounted bars. Tom has helped to eductate me enormously and has been a consumate professional educator and collector for my fledgling collection of WWI TR parade mounted bars. (Yes, I was stung but fortunately all of the dealers refunded my money to the last penny!) At any rate, I'm ignorant when it comes to Imperial bars and would appreciate any and all info you could share. Thanks in advance and happy holidays to all!

Here are a few more examples of his fraudulent handiwork. Study the two bars in the picture below and the similar characteristics are striking. After looking at these two bars, there should be no doubt in your mind that both were made by the exact same person. Think of it as if in being an art museum and you see two different paintings, but you instantly know that both were done by the same artist. The style and technique gives it away.

Both of these medal bars were found on the same website, practically side-by-side. In fact, about 80% of the medal bars on this site were the work of the same character. Since original medal bars were assembled by multitudes of different people, what is the likelihood of finding two (let alone twenty) made by the same exact person in the same place decades after the fact? Well, if original, it would be highly unlikely. Even at some of the big military shows, you will see a couple of dealers that have a dozen or so medal bars and, despite the myriad of different medals displayed, the bars all look the same. That is one big red flag that should make you run.

The bar at the top (although theoretically possible as a grouping) would be next to impossible to find. The bar at the bottom is absolutely ridiculous and not even theoretically possible as a grouping. As Ulsterman mentioned, this character likes to use obscure foreign decorations to make the bar seem "special" and to awe the unsuspecting.

Here are some of the traits that I have noticed:

1. Use of new ribbons, which may or may not glow under ultraviolet light.

2. Large bars having lots of common (cheap) medals. (As Ulsterman mentioned, though, he is trying to be less brazen these days.)

3. Use of obscure foreign decorations.

4. Some real and some fake medals. (On the two bars shown, the Eastern Volunteer Decorations are fake, in my opinion.)

5. Same exact ribbon wrapping, usually with a very flat appearance and little, if any, padding.

6. Almost always, a lack of ribbon rosettes at the bottom of the bar. (Although some original bars are without ribbon rosettes too.)

7. A crude-looking attachment pin with a rough, clipped end.

8. The same exact stitching pattern used for attaching the backing cloth.

9. Some of his bars use original mounting components, but on many others you might be surprised at what you might find under the cloth backing: I have seen some that have a very crude pin hinge that is glued to the backplate with epoxy. The pin catches are usually convincing, but can also be found epoxied in place.

10. Sometimes the ribbons are dirtied in a futile attempt to make them look old. The result always looks artificial and blatant.

Best regards & Happy Holidays,

Tom

[Ulsterman]

Little to add-except these are classics and again, started life at Kellys'.

Note the stitching pattern on the back.

Most worrisome is that over the past year he has become good at furled ribbons AND he is using original imperial medals. TR medals are often re-strikes, but difficult to spot on an eBay photo. He likes to use tea and coffee as a stain. He has also begun to "fade" ribbons a bit. I suspect he is just leaving the bar/ribbons out in a window for a couple of months.

ALWAYS sniff the bar (Rick taught me this). Some things can not be faked (well). Often original bars smell, well, old.