USAF NCO Ribbon Bar-- ? Biography

[Guest Rick Research]

I love ribbon bars, any country, any period, but about Mine Own Native Land's, after Veetnam =

I am able to identify the NAMES of what these awards are, but not WHY they were awarded. What does a read of this first term Air Force NCO's bar tell about what he did and where he did it? My own family ran to army and land-navy, so flying is outside anything I know anything about.

[attachmentid=20412]

1) Air Force Achievement Medal--- or ?

2) Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (ribbon, 1954+)

3) USAF Good Conduct Medal (absence of devices, so only one term as worn?)

4) National Defense Service Medal (so during some "war" period)

5) Air Force Overseas Service Short Tour ribbon (1980+ ???)

6) Air Force Longevity Service ribbon (1957+ HUH????)

7) Air Force NCO Professional Military Education Graduate ribbon with oakleaf cluster (1962+ = ???)

8) Air Force Small Arms Expert ribbon (1962-- terrific ribbon design, BTW)

9) Air Force Training ribbon (1980+ HUH ?????)

So a post 1980 bar, but pre any Current Events?

Thanks for any insights into "reading" this for what it says about the unknown wearer!

[NavyFCO]

Rick-

A friend of mine has almost exactly the same bar, and it's, well.....

This fellow doesn't have any identifyable campaign awards, which means that he bailed pre-9/11 (or at least not long enough to wear the GWOTSM) and didn't go overseas for Bosnia (etc.) the Gulf War 1 or anything else in the Gulf that took place. I'm not Air Force, but I'm guessing this fellow did a 4 year committment and then bailed afterwards, given his single Good Conduct award. I don't know when the USAF starts their NCO PME, but I'm guessing he was an E-5 or so.

Also, the USAF Achievement Medal is normally pretty "vanilla" in the whole scheme of personal awards. I'd say of Achievement Medals that may be interesting starts with the Marine Corps (they get a Navy one, but they're seriously skimpy on awards) the Navy, the Army then the Air Force. One of my guys got an Air Force Achievement Medal for a ten-day internship with an Air Force unit (he helped them with a goodwill event out of state... ooooh!) and yet I spent two years owning $250m. worth of equipment, 23 people and served as the Air Warfare Commander for a carrier battlegroup in a combat zone to get a single Navy Achievement one. Go figure...

Dave

[Chris Boonzaier]

Rick-

but I'm guessing this fellow did a 4 year committment and then bailed afterwards, given his single Good Conduct award. I don't know when the USAF starts their NCO PME, but I'm guessing he was an E-5 or so.

Dave

Thats 2.25 medals a year without ANY operational service?

[Guest Rick Research]

There are actually only three MEDALS -- the rest are these weird "ribbons only" our military has come up with in recent decades. Too cheap to spring for the full treatment, I guess!

Thanks for the insight on the sole "decoration."

I'm still wondering how "longevity" could enter in SIMULTANEOUSLY with a single term enlistment!

[Paul R]

Dave

I would rate the Coast Guard Achievement medal along with the Navy/Marine Corps Achievement medal for the frequency awarded.

I know that we are little, but we count too! LOL

Paul

Edited December 26, 2005 by Paul Reck

[David S]

This Airman did a minimum of 4 years and a maximun of less than 6 years active service. Six years would have warranted a cluster on the GCM. This soldier could be male of female.

They served in a period (possibly 1990-95) to be awarded the NDSM.

They did a 'short tour' of 15 months, possibly in Korea.

One of the units they served in was awarded a OUA (1 to 2 years qual period). Not necessary to be combat related.

The cluster on the Professional Military Education ribbon means they completed the second level of education. NCO Prep and Airman Leadership maybe.

They did a good enough job to receive the AF Achievement medal. Sort of a glorified Letter of Commendation.

Nothing overseas except for the short tour. Most likely ground element.

A lot to show for not much.

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks!

Yes, that seems to be the trend of recent years: lots and lots and LOTS of ribbons, for things the issuing authorities didn't think warranted Real Medals.

[David S]

The Air Force Training ribbon is for completing Basic Training

What has always boggled me is why the AF has TWO long service awards? The Good Conduct is for enlisted only for 3 years service, the Longevity is for 4 years service for everybody. The AF is the only service where officers receive 'awards' for long service. All this is for active, AF Reserve and NG have complicated formulas for calculating time.

[Guest Rick Research]

[JBFloyd]

The Good Conduct Medal notes only good conduct, not longevity. The qualifying period stops with a major infraction (assuming the commander has the cojones to stop it) and then restarts.

The Long Service Award notes longevity, which is simply a function of the calendar.

You will get the Longevity Service Award by being alive long enough; the Good Conduct Medal is not so automatic (theoretically).

They're dopy awards, but traditional, and they're certainly no worse than long and short tour ribbons, NCO development, honor graduate and training ribbons.

[Guest Rick Research]

Sooooo.....

theoretically...

somebody could flunk out of basic training and NOT have that ribbon (?! ) and go on to four years of constant disciplinary action (longevity) WITHOUT a Good Conduct Medal AND still get promoted to NCO? (?! )

so by removing two ribbons I' have a first term career stockade dweller?

[Bob Hunter]

Good lord, Richard! We do not house our recalcitrant service members in stockades! They are called disciplinary barracks.

[David S]

Actually flunking basic training means that a career comes to a screeching halt. Darned few people fail basic hence the absurdity of the 'award'.

Coming out of AF basic nowadays you could have two ribbons . . .the training one, and the marksmanship (for Expert only). AND if you are Honor Graduate you get another ribbon.

The Army isn't much better, for completing Basic you receive the Army Service Ribbon. You get a marksmanship award (not a ribbon) as well.

When I got out of Army basic in 1972 I had the National Defense, it took me three years before another . . .the Good Conduct.

National Defense has qualifying periods

1950-54 Korean War era

1961-74 Vietnam era

1990-95 Gulf War era

2001-Present

Edited January 1, 2006 by David S

[Dave Danner]

The Army isn't much better, for completing Basic you receive the Army Service Ribbon. You get a marksmanship award (not a ribbon) as well.

When I got out of Army basic in 1972 I had the National Defense, it took me three years before another . . .the Good Conduct.

The Army Service Ribbon is awarded on completion of advanced individual training, not BCT. Everyone gets a marksmanship badge because everyone is required to qualify - which badge you get - Marksman, Sharpshooter or Expert - depends on how well you shoot. The NDSM is awarded for serving on active duty during a designated crisis period, so you actually "earned" it before you got out of basic.

[NavyFCO]

What has always boggled me is why the AF has TWO long service awards? The Good Conduct is for enlisted only for 3 years service, the Longevity is for 4 years service for everybody. The AF is the only service where officers receive 'awards' for long service. All this is for active, AF Reserve and NG have complicated formulas for calculating time.

So, if you REALLY want to collect ribbons (and medals for that matter) you join the reserves as an enlisted person. You'll get the USAF Good Conduct, USAF Longevity and the Armed Forces Reserve Medal after 10 years of service in the Reserves (or quicker if you get mobilized.)

Today, if you were to join the USAF Reserve as an enlisted person and get yourself mobilized, and literally not even have to leave your hometown (if you lived around a base), after four years you would have:

USAF Good Conduct

National Defense Service Medal

GWOT Service Medal

Longevity Service Award

Armed Forces Reserve Medal with "M" device

Air Force Training Ribbon

Do equal time (three years) on Reserve duty and qualify for the Air Reserve Meritorious Service Medal as well.

So, a total of six ribbons (four medals!) for having a pulse, putting out as little effort as possible and never getting in trouble. Not a bad deal!

Dave

[David S]

The Army Service Ribbon is awarded on completion of advanced individual training, not BCT. Everyone gets a marksmanship badge because everyone is required to qualify - which badge you get - Marksman, Sharpshooter or Expert - depends on how well you shoot. The NDSM is awarded for serving on active duty during a designated crisis period, so you actually "earned" it before you got out of basic.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Ulsterman]

What I really like about this bar is its "over the top" nature. In comparison to most other nations armed forces a 4 year jr. NCO would maybe have had one or two medals-but most likely nothing. There are British members on the forum who have 3 medals after almost 30 years outstanding service to the Crown. Had they been US NCOs they'd look like Soviet Admirals.

[Dave Danner]

What I really like about this bar is its "over the top" nature. In comparison to most other nations armed forces a 4 year jr. NCO would maybe have had one or two medals-but most likely nothing. There are British members on the forum who have 3 medals after almost 30 years outstanding service to the Crown. Had they been US NCOs they'd look like Soviet Admirals.

After four years of service, the typical Army or Air Force enlisted man is not a junior NCO. The average time-in-service for promotion to E-5 in all the services is over four years, so at four years of service, most soldiers. sailors, airmen and Marines are E-4s. Air Force E-4s (Senior Airmen) are not NCOs. The majority of Army E-4s are Specialists, who are not NCOs, while only a minority are Corporals, who are NCOs. In the Navy and Marine Corps, E-4s are junior NCOs - Petty officers 3rd class in the Navy and Corporals in the Army.

Regarding the Air Force group that started this, the person was not a four-years and out, as speculated. The oak leaf cluster on the NCO Professional Military Education Graduate Ribbon indicates at least two eligible leadership schools, most likely the NCO Preparatory Course and the Airman Leadership School. You have to have a minumum of 48 months time in service to attend the latter, and 5-6 years of service is typical. The lack of a cluster on the Air Force Good Conduct Medal means either he did something to not earn a second award or he got out at just under six years.

And this amount of fruit salad would be atypical for other services, especially the Marine Corps.

Attached is an example of an associate of mine: a Specialist (E-4) in the early to mid-1990s in an elite unit (3rd Ranger Battalion). He is a combat veteran (note the Purple Heart and Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal) with a grand total of five ribbons. But for going to the Mog and getting himself wounded, he would have had 2-3 ribbons - Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal and Army Service Ribbon. I think he went to pull-dick (PLDC, the Army's junior NCO course) after this photo was taken, so you could add the Army NCO Professional Development Ribbon as well.

[Ulsterman]

Dave:

Point taken (RE: NCOs)-but I'm showing my age and odd military background.

I still think in terms of the 1960s-early 1970s, before rank and medal inflation took place in the US forces. I still distinctly remember when the specialist stripes began to appear. I however, clearly remember Sergeants at 3-4 years, although they were flight crew on B-52s and it was 1970.

When I was a Nipper, below three stripes was not allowed in the NCOs' club and you actually had a significant number of NCOs passed over and out above five stripes.

I understand however, that the Airmans' school and the NCO school are more readily entered if one has a college degree.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Ulsterman

[Dave Danner]

Dave:

Point taken (RE: NCOs)-but I'm showing my age and odd military background.

I still think in terms of the 1960s-early 1970s, before rank and medal inflation took place in the US forces. I still distinctly remember when the specialist stripes began to appear. I however, clearly remember Sergeants at 3-4 years, although they were flight crew on B-52s and it was 1970.

When I was a Nipper, below three stripes was not allowed in the NCOs' club and you actually had a significant number of NCOs passed over and out above five stripes.

I understand however, that the Airmans' school and the NCO school are more readily entered if one has a college degree.

There are and were plenty of sergeants with 3-4 years of service. It is the average time-in-service that is higher. If 1000 people are promoted to E-5, and the average is 4.5 years, there will be a number of soldiers with 3 years in and a number closer to six.

And 1970, of course, was a war year. During wartime service, time-in-service and time-in-grade formalities go out the window. I had a friend who was commissioned in 1940 and was a Lt. Colonel by the winter of 1944-45.

I think I have almost everyone in the Army beat on one record, though. I entered the Army as a PFC/E-3 and I had exactly one day of time-in-service when I was promoted to Specialist/E-4. I made E-5 a little over a year and a half later and O-1 a few months after that.

I perused a few Chief Master Sergeant bios on a few Air Force command websites to see some "typical" career progressions (actually a little atypical, since these guys would be the cream of the crop) from the 1980s on. They typically enlisted around 1981-1984 and went to the two initial leadership schools within the timeframe I noted. For example:

Chief Master Sergeant Todd Salzman, 22nd Air Refueling Wing:

1982 - Enlisted as Airman 1st Class

1984 - NCO Preparatory Course

1984 - Sr. Airman

1985 - Sergeant

1987 - Staff Sergeant

1987 - NCO Leadership School

1991 - Technical Sergeant

1992 - NCO Academy

1997 - Master Sergeant

2000 - Senior NCO Academy

2000 - Senior Master Sergeant

2004 - Chief Master Sergeant

Chief Master Sergeant Karl Sagstetter, Air University, Maxwell Air Force Base:

1981 - Enlisted as Airman

1982 - Airman First Class

1984 - Sr. Airman

1984 - NCO Preparatory Course

1985 - Staff Sergeant

1988 - NCO Leadership School

1990 - Technical Sergeant

1990 - NCO Academy

1993 - Master Sergeant

1996 - Senior Master Sergeant

1997 - Senior NCO Academy

1999 - Chief Master Sergeant

Chief Master Sergeant Paul A. Sikora, Jr., 377th Air Base Wing:

1981 - Enlisted as Airman

1982 - Airman First Class

1983 - Senior Airman

1983 - NCO Preparatory Course

1985 - Staff Sergeant

1985 - NCO Leadership School

1988 - Technical Sergeant

1988 - NCO Academy

1994 - Master Sergeant

1997 - Senior NCO Academy

1998 - Senior Master Sergeant

2000 - Chief Master Sergeant

Chief Master Sergeant Jerry Sutton, 48th Fighter Wing

1984 - Enlisted as Airman

1985 - Airman First Class

1987 - Senior Airman

1988 - NCO Preparatory Course

1988 - Sergeant

1989 - Staff Sergeant

1990 - NCO Leadership School

1992 - Technical Sergeant

1994 - NCO Academy

1994 - Master Sergeant

1999 - Senior NCO Academy

1999 - Senior Master Sergeant

2002 - Chief Master Sergeant

There are some discrepancies in career progression partly because the Air Force changed its rank structure at some point, eliminating the rank of Sergeant (you now go straight from Sr. Airman to Staff Sergeant).

Here are a few others:

http://www.af.mil/library/biographies/bio.asp?bioID=6561

http://www.incirlik.af.mil/html/allen.htm

http://www.yokota.af.mil/Leadership/USFJCommandChief/

http://www.yokota.af.mil/Leadership/AWCommandChief/

http://www.elmendorf.af.mil/11af/webdocs/11AFCCCbio.mht

http://www.andersen.af.mil/36AEW/36pa/Bios/CMSWicks.htm

http://www.beale.af.mil/biographies/9RWccmsbio.asp

http://www.buckley.af.mil/bio_cmd_chief.htm

[Ulsterman]

Wow- good stuff.

I met Sutton . I know the 48th well.

[Dave Danner]

In terms of reading uniforms, what can our forumites tell me about Stimpy's career based on the photo in post #18. I already gave away some bits of information.

[ehrentitle]

In terms of reading uniforms, what can our forumites tell me about Stimpy's career based on the photo in post #18. I already gave away some bits of information.

It's a photo from around 1993 or 94 because he is wearing the black beret rather than the tan beret and you can just see CPT Mike Steele's name in the background, more on Blackhawk Down later. He is a Specialist, a qualified Infantryman (Hooah!!!) and a qualified Ranger (unusual for a first term soldier), Airborne Qualified (Hooah!!) and an expert marksman who was assigned to B Company, 3rd Ranger Battaion, Ranger Regiment. Looks like he has Thailand basic airborne wings, so he probably participated in an exchange jump while on exercise in Thailand.

He most likely earned his Purple Heart as part of Task Force Ranger where Rangers and special operators were fast roped into central Mogadishu on a raid October 3, 1993. (The combat patch, CIB, AFEM and possibly the AAM are all from Mog as well) Can't tell though if he was on the raid or the rescue party. He has two Presidental Unit Citations, both historical, i.e. can't be worn after he left the 3rd Battaion. He also has a Valorous Unit Award earned in Mog which could be worn through out his career.

If this was taken shortly after October 1993 he could have later been awarded a decoration for valor for Mog such as a Silver Star, a Bronze Star or qn ARCOM V Device since award recommendations sometimes take several months to make it through Army administrative channels.

If he is still in the Army, here 13 years later, he would probably have around 15 years of service which means he is either a Sergeant First Class or a very senior Staff Sergeant.

Is it SPC John Stebbins, Spc Dale Sizemore, Spc Peter Squeglia or SPC Shawn Nelson, all made famous by the book Black Hawk Down ? My vote would be Shawn Nelson. Kevin

Edited January 6, 2006 by ehrentitle

[Dave Danner]

The AAM is not from the Mog. The Army Achievement Medal cannot be awarded for combat-related actions, unlike the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal.

The Valorous Unit Citation for 3-75 for Mogadishu was not authorized until late 1996. The one he's wearing is for Binh Duong Province, Vietnam. The Presidential Unit Citations are from WW2 - Salerno and Myitkyina.

You got almost everything else. Specialists in Batt, and even the occasional PFC, are often sent to Ranger School.

Note that but for CPT Steele's name behind him, there is nothing visible on his uniform to distinguish a Somalia Ranger circa 1994 from a Panama Ranger circa 1990 except this: no arrowhead on the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. A wider shot would also show no mustard stain on the jump wings.

That's the logic process at work. You know it is after the mid-1980s because he has a 3rd Batt flash, and 3rd Batt wasn't formed until February 1986. You know it is before 2001 because of the black beret rather than tan. There were a few operations for which the AFEM was authorized in this timeframe, but the only ones involving 3rd Batt were Panama and Somalia. Since 3rd Batt jumped into Panama, a veteran of the former would have the arrowhead and the mustard stain, so that leaves Somalia. See, we can read stuff like Rick with Imperial medal bars, too!

If you've seen or read BHD, you may recall a Ranger who had asthma who wasn't on the initial raid (he was on a detail at the time), who joined the relief column after a little hesitation. That's him. Steve Anderson.

[ehrentitle]

If you've seen or read BHD, you may recall a Ranger who had asthma who wasn't on the initial raid (he was on a detail at the time), who joined the relief column after a little hesitation. That's him. Steve Anderson.

Yes I read BHD a few years back, Anderson carried the SAW and went through basic with Sizemore. Kevin