Prussian SWA medal bar with Kalahari 08 bar

[Paul C]

I am posting this for a fellow forum member. Any comments are welcome.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Paul C

[Paul C]

reverse

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Paul:

An interesting group. I never have a good feeling though when I see a silver-gilt MVO "3rd" with swords these days. Often, they are gilded 4th Class with swords pieces made to deceive collectors. Also, considering the source of this particular item (who has sold some items in the past that I would possibly consider questionable), I would tend to be cautious. With that being said, without actually inspecting the piece in person, no definitive conclusions can be drawn.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for posting the images, Paul. I bought this one admittedly on a bit of a hunch, and having it in hand, it certainly all looks period. The BMVO has wear to the high points, so it has been on the bar for a long time. The overall wear to the ribbons is even, and everything seems OK on it. I also have a matching feldspange which looks good. The PKO is a hollow gilt item, and the RAO is marked for Godet.

[HeikoGrusdat]

is it possible to see a good closeup of the Kalahari-clasp?

[VtwinVince]

Heiko, I sent you a PM. The KO is marked for Wagner, and it looks like the Centenarmedaille was gilded.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Here are some more pictures.... the ribbon bar

[HeikoGrusdat]

and the Kalahari...

[Noor]

Nice ribbon bar! I like swords device on it.

EK2 ribbon looks strange a little pit - white stripes looks like smaller then usually.

Did you used black light?

What experts think? I think it is original period set.

[Noor]

SWA ribbon on the medal bar looks very "fresh"

again, "black light"?

[HeikoGrusdat]

Ok...I am far away of being an expert for MVOs or KOs , replaced or not - I don`t know....... I tell you what I think when I look at the bar , three points jump into my eyes....

1. You can see from the bar that this was an officer with long service etc... 25 years cross is on the bar , in service 1897 .... ok .... but when he was in DSWA and took active part in the war allowing him to wear a battle clasp - but he got no officers combattant award for this... only peacetime orders on the bar before ww1

2. In the war he got a prussian combattant EK2 (or maybe homefront....who knows) and a bavarian order on the ribbon for officials in war service / homefront - the so called "Beamtenband" - is it possible for a pure prussian career to be a bavarian official in ww1 ?

3. have a look at the threads the orders and awards are fixed with.... they had some different colours... why not use the best colour for each order - a yellow thread on a white crown order ? Why not use the white thread from the read eagle....

Just my thoughts , maybe I am completely on the wrong way...

The group looks cool , no question , but I am a bit ..... hmmmm .... nervous

Edited April 24, 2010 by HeikoGrusdat

[saschaw]

Interresting group. The combination seems to make sense, however the sewing does not concince me.

Bigger pictures of the BMV3X possible? That should give an answer about the whole group.

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for the input so far. I have the same feelings about this bar, especially the sewing using different color thread, and the funny combination. I thought this before I bought it, but since I paid a low price, I thought I would take the chance. Having the group in hand, I do not think it is put together, although I am going to do the black light test on it, once I get a new black light this week. I have looked very closely at the BMVO, especially the medallions, and they are a match for other examples of the fourth class which I have. The gilding looks good, with consistent wear to the high points. I am confused by the non-statute order of mounting. It almost looks as if the BMVO and the PKO were switched out at some point, perhaps for higher grades of the orders, but this was not done recently for sure. The ribbon bar looks absolutely correct in construction and wear as well. If this is a forgery, it is the work of a real master. I'm going to send better scans to some other members, so feel free to put them up on this thread for discussion, as I have a compatibility problem with my computer and this site.

[VtwinVince]

Edit: I got an email from the seller, and he claims that he originally got this group with the mini-spange, which he is trying to locate.

[sammlerchris1]

Hello,

the BMVO ist a late Piece made by Weiss & Co. München. And Weiss never ever produced a 3rd-Class...

Regards,

Chris

[VtwinVince]

Bernd Doebel also thinks this is a gilded fourth class, so I would defer to the experts. I am puzzled about this, as the medal clearly was not altered recently, and has been on the spange a long time, judging from the wear to the high points. So what do we have here? Certainly not a complete fantasy spange, as most elements make sense, along with the feldspange. A period spange with altered BMVO? Doesn't make sense to me. Are there records from Weiss stating that they never made a third class, or is this just conjecture based on existing examples?

[militaria0815]

It is no problem to find out whether the BMVO is an original or fake. All I need is a high resoultion pic and I can tell for sure what it is. Paul got my email address, I will let all of you know the result here in this forum then.

[Paul C]

Vince, Email me a high res scan of the BMVO and I will for it to militaria0815

[militaria0815]

Are there records from Weiss stating that they never made a third class, or is this just conjecture based on existing examples?

Fact is that Hemmerle made100 pieces, Leser made 200, Weiß zero. 246 were awarded, remaining items stayed in stock.

Weiss produced 4th classes only.

3rd classes last type are NEVER just gilded 4th classes, construction was completely different which makes it easy to detect faked items.

Edited April 26, 2010 by militaria0815

[Bernd D]

I had a look at a scan of the battle clasp. I´m not really sure but it don´t look good to me.

I compared the recipients of the BMVO 3x am Band für Kriegsverdienst with the guys who stayed at GSWA. There were two of them. One of them was also entitled to wear the KALAHARI bar but their medals don´t fit to this bar.

Bernd

[militaria0815]

After I got better pics of the BMVO I am sorry I have to tell you it is a 100% gilded 4th class and so it cannot be the order which has to be on the medal bar. This fact alone makes the whole medal bar most doubtful.

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for all the knowledgeable input so far. As a hypothetical question, would this bar make sense with a BMVO4mS? I'm going to do a couple more tests before I decide whether to take this one apart as a parts bar or not.

[Paul C]

It might, but I spoke to Rick about the bar and he said the the order of medal in the medal bar is all wrong.

[VtwinVince]

Update: both the bar and the feldspange passed the black light and thread tests.