4 place Imperial German group - opinions please

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I hesitate to say that I am getting better at spotting good Imperial medal bars though I have gained a great deal of information both through help from members on the forum and in PM conversations with fellow members. I say "hesitant" as I don't want to sound too vain until the members have a good look at this latest addition, an Imperial German/Saxony group.

The bar looks old and I think it is a good one. The Iron Cross is three piece and of ferrous metal (magnetic core), however it was added on after the main bar of three was mounted. The EK is on a separate piece of metal that is the same as the metal that was used in the mounting of the other three. The stitching of the backing helps hold it together with the rest of the medals. You may be able to see this metal piece between the Honour Cross's sword tip and the upper left edge of the left-hand cross arm. The Honour cross ribbon is not as far below the bar as the other two. Yet it looks to have been mounted at the same time. The ribbons all seem to aged about the same amount.

The Friedrich August Medal is of bronze which I have read was for enlisted men with the silver for officers and NCOs. Please correct me if that is wrong.

The last medal, a cross, is one I have not yet found in my searches. It seems to be for 25 years of service and is mounted on the Saxony Long & Devoted Service ribbon. The reverse of the cross has, what I believe to be, the manufacturer's information. Would this cross be to a Veteran's Association? I've run across some Long Service crosses in my seraches but they look a lot different from this one.

Any assistance or direction will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

This is the reverse. I believe it is in keeping with a period mount, however, you can see where the mounting pin starts and stops. The EK is to the right of where the pin ends which makes me think that this was added at a later date, though not in modern times.

I would really like to hear your opinions.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here is a closer view of the Bronze Friedrich August Medal and the cross I have questiones about.

[Brian Wolfe]

This last photo is of the reverse of the cross showing the lettering which I think states the manufacturer's name and information. I have not gotten a translation so I could be a long way off base with this idea.

Thanks for taking the time to look over my post and I look forward to hearing from the members regarding my questions, and any other comments you have.

Regards

Brian

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Brian,

bar looks good and from that time....

the cross in last place is a private cross of a military club , maybe there is something written on the reverse side on the crossarms? Either he had the saxon long service medal and changed it against the cross or he just wanted to mount his club cross and took a nice green-white saxon ribbon for that....

only one small thing to correct you:

the Friedrich August medal was never for officers , it was a pure enlisted men (bronze) and NCO (silver) award....

the only possibility when you see a officer wearing a Friedrich August medal is that he went through the ranks and got the FAM as Feldwebel for example and was then promoted as Offiziersstellvertreter , Feldwebelleutnant or something like that....now in an officer rank he could still wear his FAM together then with officer awards , maybe a Albrecht-order

cheers

Heiko

[HeikoGrusdat]

Clever.........posting the reverse while I am writing...

OK, no specific club or association on the reverse....

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Heiko,

That cross had me looking for days with no luck.

It does make me wonder if the actual long service medal was ever on the bar. If so I would be temped to look for one and restore the bar.

Regards and thanks for your help.

Brian

[Ulsterman]

The bar is rarer with the veterans' medal on it- a splendid piece. Thanks to RR and JF I have many old Old Tony Colsons notes on veterans' stuff and this little medal was a private purchase-award given for "long service" in a town veteran's association.

I think its' splendid!

[Brian Wolfe]

The bar is rarer with the veterans' medal on it- a splendid piece. Thanks to RR and JF I have many old Old Tony Colsons notes on veterans' stuff and this little medal was a private purchase-award given for "long service" in a town veteran's association.

I think its' splendid!

Hello Ulsterman,

Thanks for your comment and I have decided to leave it as is. I was thinking about changing the cross for the medal and then I started to think that this was probably done by the veteran himself so a change would be sacrilege.

Regards

Brian

[VtwinVince]

Brian, it looks like the Hindenburg cross has been swapped onto the bar, judging from the reverse. Perhaps there was an unofficial award there, such as the Kyffhaeuser medal, before?

[Paul R]

I am glad to see that you are leaving it untouched. It would really suck to switch out medals that could be legit to the bar.

[Brian Wolfe]

Brian, it looks like the Hindenburg cross has been swapped onto the bar, judging from the reverse. Perhaps there was an unofficial award there, such as the Kyffhaeuser medal, before?

Anything is possible, however the ribbon would not support this particular hypothecs.

Regards

Brian

Edited July 23, 2010 by Brian Wolfe

[VtwinVince]

The Hindenburg cross is not mounted consistently with the others, looks like the ribbon has been swapped.

[Brian Wolfe]

The Hindenburg cross is not mounted consistently with the others, looks like the ribbon has been swapped.

Agreed. I too noticed this and found it interesting that the Saxony Medal would fall third on the bar, though I don't know much about the correct order of wear. If the EK were added to this group after the inital mounting of the three then the first medal would have been a veretan's assiciation medal (according to your suggestion) followed by the Saxony Medal then another association medal (this time the cross). That seems rather an odd combination to me.

This is just an observation and not a argument for or against the suggestion that the Honour Cross with its ribbon replaced a earlier medal and ribbon. This is one group that certainly gives one pause to think about what may have taken place in the past making it much more interesting than a "perfect" bar, in my opinion.

Regards

Brian

Edited July 24, 2010 by Brian Wolfe

[scottplen]

I am NO expert ! But IMO The bar probably had another War vet. medal were the Hindenburg cross was and after its arrival was switched by Vet

Seen a lot of bars like that!! I like it!!!

[Brian Wolfe]

I am NO expert ! But IMO The bar probably had another War vet. medal were the Hindenburg cross was and after its arrival was switched by Vet

Seen a lot of bars like that!! I like it!!!

Well compaired with my knowledge you are probably an expert.

I'm pretty new to this Imperial German collecting so I need all the input and information I can get.

Thanks for adding to the information on this bar, it is most appreciated.

Regards

Brian

[saschaw]

The bar started it's "life" with three awards on it, and was made bigger in 1934/35 for the Hindenburg cross. The EK used to be where this one is now.