Gordon Williamson Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Just picked up this fine silver Wound Badge thanks to Stogieman. It is not of course one of the types that Hamelmann states as being for the Legion Condor, but as there are a number of inconsistencies in his book, I wondered what the general concensus amongst those who specialise in SCW awards is on these badges. Hamelmann states that only one firm made the true Condor Legion badge, but doesn't quote a source for this information. Does anyone know of any firm information that this was the case? (I don't see the small numbers issued as being particularly relevant as there are numerous examples of mutliple manufacturers for awards only bestowed in very small numbers). Is there any real concensus over his classification of these into "Prototype 1939" ( i.e. like this one, with flush swastika) and "1939 1st Type" with the stepped swastika ? Or is it all really just a case of contemporary manufacturers variants ?
joe campbell Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 (edited) gordon-beautiful, high quality silvertype one wound badge.i may be able to find out about theone manufacturer theory of hamelman'sand let you know. i think that there wasone firm during the active LC days - andlate, at that - that were making "LC wound badges",and that as poland, france, etc ramped up,the type ones came into play.for the vast numbers of these, there is pitifullittle info.that's a keeper! my compliments to both buyer and seller!joe Edited December 31, 2005 by joe campbell
Gordon Williamson Posted December 31, 2005 Author Posted December 31, 2005 Hi Joe, Thanks for that, I'd be interested in any further info you can dig up. It's not that I doubt Hamelmann's word, I'm just interested to know how the theory came about. I can quite understand how only one firm might initially be involved, then more added as war broke out, but as there appear to be so many variants of the "1st Type" ( i.e. the different helmet shapes, bows at the base of the wreath etc), how do we know that the type shown by Hamelmann is the one true "Legion Condor" type. By the way, there is something else which makes the one I showed above rather tasty. Its a screwback ! Complete with screw plate with "Mickey Mouse Ears" lugs. Can't believe I was able to snag this, after it had sat for several days in the Saleroom in this Forum at a very, very fair price.
J Temple-West Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 The type with the 'stepped' swastika. This particular WB came with a medal bar obtained many years ago. Nothing on the bar to suggest the recipiant was in the the 'LC' so no help there. Gordon.. A very nice badge. I must remember to look in at the sale room a little more often!
Bob Hunter Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Gordon, congratulations on your new addition. It is a fine badge.John, thanks for showing yours too. It's a prize by itself.
Jacques Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 I don't trust this theory of LC wounded badge or prototype. I think that the badge was instituted on the base of the WW1 design, and in some cases manufactured with ww1 badges. Of course, the first guys entitled to be awarded this badge were the LC members wounded in Spain. the badge was mass manufactured because period pics showing it worn are common. the first wounded during the war (Poland, Francere, etc..)received it before the manufacture of the 1940 model. Moreover this badge was delivered later , all along the war ( stocks remaining). I suppose that the Chancellery asked for new designs at the beginning of the war to reward the soldiers with new badges. just my two cents.
Jacques Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Personnally, I prefer the so-called ''verbödet" model
don Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Some nice badges. For now I will go with the one manufacture theory of the 1936.If only one was awarded why make thousands?Why not just make a run with a few hundred?One thing I know for sure...We need some more books on this badge.1939 first type don
Guest Rick Research Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Just ONCE, many eons ago, I saw one of these with the swastika IMPRESSED down INTO the helmet, not raised up.Has anyone else ever seen one like that?
Sal Williams Posted January 1, 2006 Posted January 1, 2006 Ah Ricky, the polish wound badge! Was it a good one in your opinion?
joe campbell Posted January 1, 2006 Posted January 1, 2006 well....i had a LONG conversation with Dr. Hamelmantoday regarding his book, and specificallyregarding the Legion Condor wound badge.he is quite certain that there was only one manufacturerof this award, however he was unable to be as specificas to the source of the information ("... i wrote that, what?20-some years ago???...").he thought that it was either from a citation inHessenthal und Schreiber, or from a conversationwith Dr. Kleitman, with whom he was well-acquainted.at any rate, having known Dr. Hamelman for a number ofyears, i am comfortable at rating this information as havinga high probability of accuracy.quite frankly, he has probably forgotten more than i willever know....hope this helps.joe
Gordon Williamson Posted January 1, 2006 Author Posted January 1, 2006 Hi Joe,Thanks for the follow up.I have no problem in accepting the suggestion of only one maker for the issues to the Legion Condor with more coming later as war erupted. I was more interested in how it was ascertained that the type shown in the book was the Legion Condor type as opposed to any other type with a flush swas.Possibly an attributed original group with this type in it ? Who knows, but it would be good to tie down firm evidence of this specific type being the Legion Condor badge through first generation evidence.Maybe some day
joe campbell Posted January 1, 2006 Posted January 1, 2006 the other part of previous conversations with Hamelmanrevolve around the actual LC wound badge: they are specific, and as stated in his book. he has one which ihave seen, and it's kind of like when you see yourfirst bentley/ferrari/maserati. it sticks out like a sore thumb!i'll see if i can get a picture.joe
don Posted January 2, 2006 Posted January 2, 2006 Thanks for info joe....I for one would love to see this picture.At one time there was talk of a new book don
joe campbell Posted January 2, 2006 Posted January 2, 2006 don-i've been harping about it for two years...he just moves kinda' s l o w....i'll keep you posted.joe
Mike Fawson Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 don-i've been harping about it for two years...he just moves kinda' s l o w....i'll keep you posted.joeHas any more information been discovered on the subject of Condor WBs and Joe have you been able to get any pics of Dr. Hamelman's Condor WB?The reason I ask is - I was sifting through and checking/measuring/weighing my type 1 WB's recently and found that 1 of them has very different characteristics to the others; specifically the characteristics conform to those described by William Hamelman in his book "German Wound Badge" i.e. the Swaz being - high with sharply defined 90 degree edges and "flush" with the surface of the helmet, also the measurements of the WB are 99.9 % identical to the Condor WB described in the book.Thus to my questions:1. Are the details described in Dr. William Hamelmans book considered to be correct?2. Are there any other specific details/characteristics of a true Condor WB that "define"/separate them from the 1st type WB's?Mike
Scott Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Sounds interesting Mike - can you share a photo of it?Scott
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