Portuguese Victory Medals

[RobW]

Very nice. I am still trying to find one, but one will show when its mean't to be

Hello Mel,

Have fun with your search. Surprisingly the unofficial types seem to be a bit more prevalent in the market at the moment, than the official strikes.

Regards,

Rob

[Pagan]

Thanks Rob. I know one will present itself when the time is right :blush:

[Jean-Michel]

Hi,

Here is a copy of one of my medals Portuguese.

On the edge figure "BRONZE" x2 and "MADE IN FRANCE" and a punch.

How to classify?

It is not allmark "AC", the punch is unreadable.

Some time ago, in an auction in Paris, I identified a marked "AB cie" (Arthus-Bertrand).

I did not win this medal because it appeared in a lot that has gone quite expensive. damage

Regards

jean-michel

[Bilco]

Hi Jean-Michel,

Your medal is very interesting, not least because it has a suspension like the US vic, rather than the usual ball.

A very similar Portuguese vic was sold a while ago on the Wittworldwide site, and I posted a link to a photo at http://www.wittworldwide.com/images/portvicunoffx.jpg See page 3 of this thread, posts #48-50.

I believe that the MADE IN FRANCE stamp indicates that it was made after 1930, probably by Delande, who produced reproductions of most of the vics.

The one on Wittworldwide didn't show any edge stamps, but the suspension suggests that it was from the same maker. Laslo talks of a Type 2 Repro of the Portuguese vic with BRONZE and MADE IN FRANCE on the edge. He also says it has a ball suspension, but he didn't know the size of the planchet, so may have been assuming the suspension type.

So, you may have a rare Type 2 Repro - congratulations!

Bill

Edited December 9, 2012 by Bilco

[Jean-Michel]

Hi Bill,

the punch is not a cornucopia of mint paris, did not produce this type medal victory, except for the model of "MORLON."

To the manufacturer's mark, it may be a mistake because it is really unreadable and it has no symmetrical shape.

So, I leave in repro type 2.

Regards

jean-michel

[Bilco]

Hi Jean-Michel,

I had thought better about the Paris Mint mark, but the post I was writing got posted when I wasn't looking! I've deleted it now.

Can you give the diameter of the planchet to fill in the blank left by Laslo?

Bill

[Jean-Michel]

Hi Bill,

The diameter is 35,38 mm and the tickness is 2,46 mm

Regards

Jean-Michel

[Bilco]

Hi Jean-Michel - many thanks.

Bill

[Bilco]

Hi Jean-Michel,

Returning to the subject of the unidentified stamp on the edge of you medal - there is a posting on GMIC dealing with French makers' marks and hallmarks:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/44224-french-makers-marks-hallmarks-guarantee-stamps/page-1

The coverage is pretty good but I haven't been able to find any likely candidates. Is it possible to see a straight-on close-up photo of the stamp?

There are also a couple of sites dealing with French marks:

http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_makers_A.html

http://www.silvercollection.it/frenchsilversmithsD.html

It would be nice to nail down the maker of your medal!

Bill

[Jean-Michel]

Hi Bill,

I am in displacement, I would more detailed photos tomorrow. The punch is really unreadable.

I knew about the different manufacturers sites, thank you anyway.

Regards

Jean-Michel

[RobW]

To all,

Here is a simple Portuguese group of 4:

* Order of the Portuguese Red Cross, Officer
* Military Medal for Exemplary Behaviour, gold
* Victory medal
* Portuguese Legion Dedication Gold medal

You will note that the vic has had the suspender repaired. It is quite probable that the thick wire suspender replaced a ball or some other suspender.

Regards,
Rob

[lambert]

Very beautiful Rob.

It is possible that this group belonged to a doctor ?

Best Regards

Lambert

[RobW]

Very beautiful Rob.

It is possible that this group belonged to a doctor ?

Best Regards

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

I do not know who the recipient of this group was. Unlike the Commonwealth countries that named their medals on the rims, other countries did not follow such practices and issued the medals unnamed.

It is, however, possible that the recipient was of the medical service, hence the Red Cross award.

Groups from Portugal are not often found.

Regards,

Rob

[lambert]

congratulations Rob ..

Are very difficult and actually, in most cases very expensive ..
This is very beautiful ..
I love this group of medal(s) medical staff / nurses and paramedics ..

This looks like the type vic unofficial?

Lambert

[RobW]

Are very difficult and actually, in most cases very expensive ..

I love this group of medal(s) medical staff / nurses and paramedics ..

This looks like the type vic unofficial?

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

Yes; it seems obtaining good quality Portuguese groups is becoming harder to do. Sometimes not all the individual pieces are in good condition. In this case all the pieces are in a good condition which adds to the group as a whole.

Sometimes it is the unusual groups, like those awarded to nurses, medical staff, support staff, that have interesting stories to them.

This looks like the type vic unofficial?

Lambert

Yes, it is an unofficial strike of the Portugal vic but not one I have seen before.

I am glad you like the group.

Regards,

Rob

[peron]

Hi

Very nice set Rob...

One of the medals on your set, the Military Medal awarded in your set for good behaviour was created in 1863 by King Luiz I of Portugal...

Here is some examples from my colection this is the very 1º version (silver grade):

Silver 2º version

Bronze 1º version

Best regards

Peron

Edited February 26, 2013 by peron

[RobW]

Hi

Very nice set Rob...

One of the medals on your set, the Military Medal awarded in your set for good behaviour was created in 1863 by King Luiz I of Portugal...

Best regards

Peron

Hello Peron,

I would agree that it is a nice set. Much of the attention and interest in the Great War appears focuses on France and the combattants. It is these groups, that display both other theatres and 'unglamorous but essential' occupations, that are fascinating.

Regards,

Rob

[Jean-Michel]

Hello,

Here is an interesting link!http://www.medailles1914-1918.fr/portugal-interal.html#Comparaison

Regards

Jean-Michel

[lambert]

Wow.

Big surprise, I had posted a photo of Vic Portugal "Type 1" a long time ago #37 , but did not have a photo of the reverse of the medal.
Clearly much more elegant than in type 2.

Regards

Lambert

Edited December 5, 2013 by lambert

[peron]

Hi

Here's an historic piece related to the portuguese Vic medal.

The cover from the cataloge of the 1º exibit of this medal by it's creator João da Silva.

Regards

Peron

Edited December 7, 2013 by peron

[Bilco]

Hi Peron,

Many thanks for posting this image. It appears to be the sculptor's plaster pattern from which the die would be produced using a reducing machine. It therefore shows the design in great detail, which is very useful when comparing genuine versions and suspected fakes!

The most famous reducing machine is that developed by Victor Janvier, and there is a photograph here medalblog.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/janviers_pantograph/

which shows the pattern in the machine being used to produce the die.

Do you have the whole catalogue? It would be nice to see the original pattern for the reverse!

By coincidence, I was at a talk today by the man who designed the Queen's Golden and Diamond Jubilee medals, as well as the 2005 gold sovereign coin, and several in the series of £1 coins, the latest of which will appear next year. He produces the design and it's made into the plaster pattern by a sculptor. There is more on the production of dies from patterns here http://medalblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/core-knowledge-on-minting-engraving/

Bill

Edited December 9, 2013 by Bilco

[peron]

Do you have the whole catalogue? It would be nice to see the original pattern for the reverse!

Hi Bilco

Unffortunally not yet, but I am certain that it wont be to hard to find it in some old book store here in Lisbon...so as soon as I find one exemplar I will post it here page by page for you all to see...

Regards

Peron

[lambert]

The most famous reducing machine is that developed by Victory Janvier, and there is a photograph here medalblog.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/janviers_pantograph/

which shows the pattern in the machine being used to produce the die.

Bil,

excellent text. I had no idea how the designer was played Medal and others. Thanks for posting this!

Lambert

Edited December 9, 2013 by lambert

[Jean-Michel]

Hello,

As part of my research, I was able seen this type of machine and the one used by Henry Nocq. It is the little son of Henry Nocq who introduced her and I saw it still works.

Regards

Jean-Michel

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

On eBay there is another Portugal vic like that posted by Peron - post # 69 - with the narrow cylinder suspension. It's item # 190999847096.

Now that we have the photo of the original model for this medal the differences are clear - on the obverse the 'feathers' in the wings in the model overlap like roof tiles, while on the eBay item they are just rows of wavy lines that look very different.

I'll post photos in the next day or two.

Bill