Ribbon bar found

[ostprussenmann_new]

I found this ribbon bar. I am a little skeptable about this one. The crowns don't look right. Any thoughts

[ostprussenmann_new]

The back. The Collor of the material on the back also doesn't look original, but the sewing is pretty good.

Edited December 26, 2010 by ostprussenmann

[Deruelle]

Hi,

First it's a pleasant ribbon bar to see. But when I look the back I have a little doubt. Indeed, this type of hook is not usual in WW1 aera. But there is some exceptions.

It is possible to have close up of the oak leaves and crowns devices please. About the first one it is the first time I see such device.

I will show you some photos of back and devices

here is the back with similar hook

Christophe

[Deruelle]

Here are photos of oak leaves devices I had in my collection

[Deruelle]

Another one

Christophe

[Deruelle]

Crown on RAO ribbon

Christophe

[Elvis]

Hello,

sorry to say:

In my opinion it is a replica.

Done in the last 4 weeks or so.

As you told us: It is to nice for an old decoration.

Hope you don`t spent to much money on it.

Elvis

[ostprussenmann_new]

Here are photos of oak leaves devices I had in my collection

Honestly, I think this is an item from Quarterdeck Militaria in Australia that someone is trying to pass off as an original. Here is the close up.

[ostprussenmann_new]

Hello,

sorry to say:

In my opinion it is a replica.

Done in the last 4 weeks or so.

As you told us: It is to nice for an old decoration.

Hope you don`t spent to much money on it.

Elvis

I have not bought it especially for $72 USD. I just had a bad feeling about it and wanted to see how everyone else felt about it.

[Deruelle]

Keep your money and try to find a very good one it's the best you can do.

Christophe

[ostprussenmann_new]

Keep your money and try to find a very good one it's the best you can do.

Christophe

Thanks everyone. I thought so.

ostprussenmann

[M Hunter]

Gentlemen,

I have seen this type of ribbon bar being sold on eBay by member "gerst".

Beware, he is also making reproductions of named ribbon bars.

Best wishes

Matt

[saschaw]

Cheap fake. But he's usually offering them as such. Well, at least as fakes.

[Arnim]

The fellow sells his ribbon bars as copies, and his ribbons and devices are very accurate. The workmanship is excellent. He makes no bones about his offerings - COPIES.

I see no harm in this. Not everyone can afford an original and who among us can really tell an original from a copy these days, who? Certainly not me.

Arnim

[Harvey]

Didn't we have a discussion on this awhile back?

If I remember correctly, "gerst" himself even joined the forum in order to engage in discussion about his production of fake ribbon bars with authentic ribbon materials. Rick (and others) would have none of it, and he was eventually banned.

Producing & selling fakes is one thing - provided they are marked as such. Trying to pass them off as the real item (or making it easy for others to do so) is quite another.

[Kev in Deva]

If I recall correctly part of Rick's argument was that once bought from "Gerst"

there was nothing to stop unscrupulous buyers re-selling on the items as original to unsuspecting / uneducated buyers as originals.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Claudius]

there was nothing to stop unscrupulous buyers re-selling on the items as original to unsuspecting / uneducated buyers as originals.

Kevin in Deva.

Kevin is EXACTLY right here! (yes I know, I'm shouting) This is the problem I have with known copies being made that are too authentic. In a few years the bar then passes hands to either an unsuspecting buyer or to an unscrupulous dealer, and suddenly it becomes discovered as a "real" bar and offered for sale in the market.

Either they shouldn't be made at all....or they need to be made with modern materials so that they have easy "tells". Current threading and weaves will show up under black light. If a Copier wants to make medal bars and ribbon bars that will glow like Chernobyl, I'm OK with that.

[Arnim]

A manufacturer is not responsible for the misuse of a legally made and sold product. The idiot who takes someone else's prescription without ready it or who tries to trim his bushes with a lawn mower shares almost all of the responsiblity of his actions. There is a price for being an idiot.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Arnim

[Arnim]

I just had a thought my friends - what an experience!

One can buy American medals all over the place these days, and ribbons, devices and brackets. There are websites which sell custom0made ribbon bars. Are these fakes or copies or are they the real thing? I am a retired Army officer, Are only the medals I received in a box with a certificate genuine? Are the extras I purchased later fakes? I had more than one marksmanship badge. One was purchased after I retired. Is that one a fake and the ones I purchased at the various posts while on active duty genuine? Help me out here.

Another thought. My mother had a beautiful print, a copy of a painting by one of the Flemish Masters - is that one a "cheap fake" too? It is mine now. I love it. It is beautiful, but it is a copy. Why are medals and ribbon bars any different. Beauty is beauty and has value for its own sake.

Arnim

[Claudius]

A manufacturer is not responsible for the misuse of a legally made and sold product. The idiot who takes someone else's prescription without ready it or who tries to trim his bushes with a lawn mower shares almost all of the responsiblity of his actions. There is a price for being an idiot.

It's "caveat emptor" then?

Is that OK with food we eat? -A restaurant doesn't have to prepare the food in a clean environment?

Stocks or mutual funds we invest in? -A company doesn't have use generally accepted accounting rules?

Medicines we rely on? -manufacturers don't have to declare possible, serious side-affects?

[Claudius]

I just had a thought my friends - what an experience!

One can buy American medals all over the place these days, and ribbons, devices and brackets. There are websites which sell custom0made ribbon bars. Are these fakes or copies or are they the real thing? I am a retired Army officer, Are only the medals I received in a box with a certificate genuine? Are the extras I purchased later fakes? I had more than one marksmanship badge. One was purchased after I retired. Is that one a fake and the ones I purchased at the various posts while on active duty genuine? Help me out here.

Another thought. My mother had a beautiful print, a copy of a painting by one of the Flemish Masters - is that one a "cheap fake" too? It is mine now. I love it. It is beautiful, but it is a copy. Why are medals and ribbon bars any different. Beauty is beauty and has value for its own sake.

Arnim

An excellent point. It for this very reason that Imperial German medal collectors will talk of "Original Issue", "Period-Made" and "Spangenstück" "after war issue" etc. It makes a difference, however all may be "real" there are just valued differently.

The Wurttemberg GMMM issue medals in .333 gold has a value well over $1,000, however the Spangenstück made for the medal bar is not precious medal and is valued much less.

An opposite example is the Prussian or Bavarian Pilot badges. The wartime issued cliché ones sell for a fraction of the post-war Junker or Poellath made ones.

Your issued medals are original. The medals you buy online are original. Your issued medals are attributed to someone (you). The ones you buy online are not. If you buy extra medals to wear on a second suit or uniform they become attributed to you. Years from now if your family sells your possessions, a collector could buy your group of medals. He would display your original issue medals and your extra set. Both sets would be attributed to you.

To your other point;

Your mother's print of the Flemish master is a copy. It is beautiful and depicts the image as well (or better) than the original, but it is still a copy. Another copy can be created. There is only one that the painter made. Even if he tried to paint two identical portraits, it would be impossible not to have some subtle differences. Like any other copy of an art piece, even if it is executed in the same perfect style, the copy will not command the same price as the original.

Originals represent the moment in time that they were created and uphold the truth of the piece. Both the pluses and the minuses.

[M Hunter]

Didn't we have a discussion on this awhile back?

If I remember correctly, "gerst" himself even joined the forum in order to engage in discussion about his production of fake ribbon bars with authentic ribbon materials. Rick (and others) would have none of it, and he was eventually banned.

"gerst" could be closer than you think.... :whistle:

[Arnim]

Give me a break - we are talking about ribbon bars here - a fake ribbon bar won't kill you. Collectibles are a hobby, a diversion, not a matter of life and death. If people are so engrossed in a simple hobby that it causes them to make personal judgements about other people, they need to get a life! This is 2011, not 1897!

What amazes me are all the pictures of fakes that are posted on this website by ill-informed buyers and nobody says a word. The fake that prompted this particular thread was a bar offered on eBay which was listed as a reproduction. It doesn't taker a genious to identify that one. An example of what I am talking about is a picture of a dozen or so ribbon bars, presumably Saxon, which inludes the St. Heinrich Order on almost all of them. There were about 1800 of these awarded and 70% of these were to fallen soldiers. 300 Albrechts Orden were awarded with swords and crown. There were three of these in the photo, one next to an EKII (1914) with a "mini." I always thought that minis were worn on the Iron Cross ribbon, to indicate the frist class award, by civilians! What's the story there?

PT Barnum said that a fool was born every minute. I am afraid we must count a number of these among us. I say, "chill out" and worry something more important, like taxes!

Arnim

[Arnim]

"gerst" could be closer than you think....

The truth is that there are lots of "Gersts" out there' but they are not the ones we have to worry about. The real danger is presented by those who manufacture and sell fakes by the hundreds and sell them as genuine, whether they are ribbon bars, pills, medals or whatever. One can buy GMC or Ford parts or go to the autop parts place to get a copy for half the price. Who is to say which part is better? You get what you pay for.

Arnim

[IrishGunner]

PT Barnum said that a fool was born every minute.

True. But I seriously doubt you'll find a sympathetic ear for your line of reasoning here, Arnim. One of the genuine purposes of this forum - at least I sincerely believe this - is to educate those "fools" so that the shucksters can't take advantage of them. That's the real benefit of a "gentleman's collecting community". Yes, it is a hobby - a diversion - but for many of us, part of the joy in that diversion is educating others (not only to collect pretty bits and bobs) and sharing our knowledge. You would likely find equally "obsessed" behavior in any collecting hobby. It's the nature of the beast. Someone genuinely interested in selling to the collecting community (and not out to simply fleece the fools of their cash) would understand and respect that nature. (Oh, and by the way, no one here would begrudge an honest businessman his fair profit.)

You get what you pay for.

There is so much contradiction and hyperbole in that statement that I don't know where to begin; that's the heart of this discussion - honestly getting exactly what one pays for - whether it be a copy or genuine. Unfortunately, the only truth in that statement is that only the informed truly get what they pay for and then only from honest dealers. All others are simply gambling or shucking and never really "get what they (sic) pay for..."

No one's life depends on this - no one will die - and, again, you are right - it's only a hobby; but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have standards and a level of decency between honest human beings.