EK 1939 Ubergrosse EK

[Biber]

I appreciate it if somebody could explain the ubergross EK to me, or point me to a source that might discuss it in some detail.

Biber

[joe campbell]

the ubergrosse EK was made early on (1939-40?)

and was "oversized" (ubergrosse) and measured

~48x48 mm as opposed to the typical 44 mm.

there has been some discussion that they were perhaps

early prototypes for the knight's cross, but were not

used for this and thought to be thrown into general

circulation.

there is also a 1914 cross identified as the ubergrosse.

hope this helps!

joe

[Biro]

I appreciate it if somebody could explain the ubergross EK to me, or point me to a source that might discuss it in some detail.....Biber

Joes summary is a good one... was there anything specific you needed to know?

Here is a typical ubergrosse... there are wide framed EK's (24's I think) which are NOT to be confused with ubergrosse pieces.

[attachmentid=22603]

As Joe has pointed out, speculation is that they were prototypes for the RK... I'm going from memory here, but I think Gordon Williamson (whose book you should have by the way) pointed out at some stage that an early German publication showing the nation what was to be the country's newly created highest decoration (the Knights Cross) actually pictured an Ubergrosse.

Trouble is, in terms of quality - and compared to Knights Crosses as we now know them - they were POOR!

They exhibit a remarkable lack of detail to the dates and swaz, and frequently the beading junctures are filed away to accomodate a swaz that simply dosen't fit well .... as per Juncker RK's...

Nonetheless, a very collectable and scarce piece due primarily to its status as RK fore-runner....

Marshall

[attachmentid=22604]

Edited January 13, 2006 by Biro

[Chris Boonzaier]

I dont buy the prototype RK theory... for the simple reason that Germany had had neck orders for years and years and years before these were made... what are the chances that they make a prototype with such a ring on it? They already had the right ring form on the Grosskreuz, so why make an EK2 ring on a prototype RK?

[Biro]

Spot on Chris!

I suspect that the appearance of the Ubergrosse in an issue of "Des F?hrers Kampf im Osten" pronouncing it 'the new RK' is more down to that individual publications lack of an alternative to show.....

... and that 'RK prototype' is probably more accurately expressed as 'RK Sized..'

One thing for sure as well - Germany prior to WW2 never had a problem cranking out prestige awards of SUPERB manufacturing quality.... and this one simply never was up to the job.

...but then we don't know.

M

Edited January 13, 2006 by Biro

[Albert]

Hi guys,

My first post here

The chances would be Zero. However, there are pieces that clearly show a modification that strongly suggests that the original eyelets were removed and the EK 2 ones added. Here is an old picture of one of the ?bergr??e I used to own that illustrates what I am referring to. So, I am a believer.

Best regards,

Albert

Edited January 13, 2006 by Albert

[Gerd Becker]

Hi and welcome, Albert

Gerd

[Guest WAR LORD]

I think that the possibility that the large Iron Cross 2nd class was the first KC is not impossible. I have one with the loop through the ring and it has an enamelded type finnish. But having said that the designe of the Eagle Order introduced in 1938 has a simmilar suspension. Thus was the designe of the Knights cross range originally to follow the lover grade and very shortly to chagen to the accepted designe. A form of Social correctness.

[joe campbell]

welcome, albert!

i appreciate your pictures and will go

take a closer look at mine.

hope you enjoy your stay here.

thanks for all the comments on

this relatively rare bird. if RK prices were

based solely on #'s produced, this

would be worth 50 large....

joe

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think that the possibility that the large Iron Cross 2nd class was the first KC is not impossible. I have one with the loop through the ring and it has an enamelded type finnish. But having said that the designe of the Eagle Order introduced in 1938 has a simmilar suspension. Thus was the designe of the Knights cross range originally to follow the lover grade and very shortly to chagen to the accepted designe. A form of Social correctness.

Why?

They had already solved the problem of how to hang an iron cross shaped thingy around your neck with the grandcross, with an extra loop it would look crqp and ... well, there is no proof either way...

Sellers will argue it is an early KC, buyers will say it is a large EK2.

[Biber]

Interesting. How do the dimensions of the ubergrosse stack up against the KC? To me it seems that the extra size comes with the wider flange on the outside beyond the beading. Could this have been merely an anomaly of the manufacturing process, peculiar to a specific set of dies that it just weren't trimmed to spec? Surely there has to be a true explanation somewhere.

Biber

Edited January 13, 2006 by Biber

[Guest WAR LORD]

In reply, why did they hang the Eagle order on the ring? Same time same grade. The case was specialy made to accomidate this style.