Thai/Siamese Victory Medals

[ThaiDave]

Oliver860

Take a look at: Numismatic Forgery by Charles Larson :

https://www.amazon.com/Numismatic-Forgery-Charles-M-Larson/dp/0974237124/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476730037&sr=8-1&keywords=numismatic+forgery

However, detailed inspection compared with a known good piece is pretty good at detecting copies for officially struck medals such as most of these.  A modern forger usually doesn't have full mint-quality dies and machines to duplicate this quality, However Chinese forging factories seem to be doing well on this.  More difficult to detect are medals not made by a mint, of which many varieties exist, and orders. Ernst Blass is infamous for his forging efforts.  And some areas are totally overcome by fakes - German 3rd Reich everything, Vietnam-era patches, and probably others.  All the Interallied victory medals and bars are faked by Mike Shank as described elsewhere, and are often passed as genuine. Many of the others are copied individually elsewhere.

[davidck]

Anyone have thoughts on if this is a genuine official Siamese vic?  It looks pretty legit to me.

http://www.emedals.com/a-rare-wwi-thai-victory-medal-w2010

[ThaiDave]

Hi davidck,

This looks like a genuine one.  But some others with this dealer don't:

Laslo "repro" for collectors (read fake) described as genuine, but with an intermediate price : http://www.emedals.com/a-rare-first-war-thai-victory-medal-1917-1918

Other Rama V fake: http://www.emedals.com/a-thai-rama-v-royal-household-merit-medal-2nd-class-c-1900

Other major Canadian dealer items - This was sold as genuine, but was a Blass fake (Laslo Repro): http://www.medalsofwar.com/product/siam-wwi-victory-medal-type-1-official/ (went for $2500, but should be maybe $400 at most)

Rgds

[Bilco]

Looks good to me.

Bill

[peter monahan]

" I see there are many types and thus it is up to the Buyer to know what they are bidding on as the details between the types can be very small to tell. "  What a cop-out, especially as there is no indication that it might be a copy or off-make and the starting price - $US 1,500 - would lead an unwary buyer to assume ti was an original.

I'm glad to see it didn't sell!

[Percy Chapman]

Hi guys...first post on the forum after lurking. absorbing and juggling time management. Firstly, thank you all for the wealth of knowledge contained within the forum and the time taken to post. I have only been collecting for a couple of (expensive) years and it is certainly a steep learning curve in all areas of interest.

After picking up recently Rumanian and Portugese VMs from the USA I am now down to the elusive Brazil, Cuba and Siam ones to complete my collection (not including the Philippines). I believe all my other VMs I have collected thus far are "good" medals thanks a lot to the information provided in this forum.

I am certainly not in a rush to find these last few as, of course, they tend to be the most expensive.

Anyway, I did notice this Siam one coming up for auction in a few days time but it looks totally dodgy to me, based on limited experience but comparing with the photos displayed in this thread. I just thought I would post it to have my suspicions confirmed or otherwise and potentially warn others out there?

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/james-and-son-auctioneers/catalogue-id-srjam10079/lot-2dac230f-aaee-41a7-9dee-a6de00cee3c4?bidplaced=

Even the auctioneer's photos are poor - why do they do this?? (rhetoric question )

Cheers.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Percy Chapman

[Tim B]

Percy,

Terrible pics but, not an original example in my opinion.  Take your time, it will pay off though the ones you have left are not going to be cheap.

Tim

[Percy Chapman]

Thanks for the reply and advice Tim. Yes, those were the pics from the auctioneer!

I totally understand the remaining few are going to cost a bundle if I pursue them. 

Regards,

Percy

Edited January 14, 2017 by Percy Chapman
simplify

[RobW]

Hello Percy,

To echo Tim's response; definitely not an official piece.  I would suggest you copy one of the close-up pics of the obverse/reverse of the official Siam vic from this sub-thread and use that as a guide when attempting to locate an official example.

Short of requesting additional pics from the vendor, you would be well placed to observe and confirm before parting with your money.  The Brazil, Cuba and Siam pieces are becoming harder to obtain in good condition and prices never seem to go down.

Have fun searching.

Regards,
Rob

[Percy Chapman]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the comments and noted. I was pretty certain it not an official one and posted to confirm as well as alert and prospective bidders. When bidding for medals at online auctions I have always requested additional images from the auctioneer and tend to stick with reputable auctions houses such as DNW in the UK for example.

Yes the elusive three are on my radar but not rushing into it.

Cheers,

Percy

[davidck]

On 11/10/2016 at 11:10, davidck said:

Anyone have thoughts on if this is a genuine official Siamese vic?  It looks pretty legit to me.

http://www.emedals.com/a-rare-wwi-thai-victory-medal-w2010

I was taking a closer look at this one, and decided that it doesn't look official to me.  It looks more like the repro type 3 in the Michels book because of the thicker fingers and size of the earring.  Thoughts?

[Bilco]

David - the fingers look fine to me ...

This is my main 'tell'.

Bill

[macchianera72]

For me is the same... look fine...

Claudio.

[ThaiDave]

Hi davidck

This one looks ok. 

The other two that they have listed as genuine however are not...

listed as " official type, extensively cleaned " but actually is Laslo Repro Type 1

https://www.emedals.com/a-rare-first-war-thai-victory-medal-1917-1918

listed as" official type " but actually is Laslo Repro Type 2 (aka Blass copy)

https://www.emedals.com/a-rare-first-war-thailand-victory-medal-w2226

Rgds

Dave

[davidck]

What about the folds on the pants, which are more pronounced than in pictures of officials that I've seen?  Also the earring, which looks bigger than pictures I've seen.  I'm trying to be diligent, because I'm thinking of making this a tax return present to myself, and it's a lot of money to drop on a fake.

[davidck]

5 hours ago, davidck said:

What about the folds on the pants, which are more pronounced than in pictures of officials that I've seen?  Also the earring, which looks bigger than pictures I've seen.  I'm trying to be diligent, because I'm thinking of making this a tax return present to myself, and it's a lot of money to drop on a fake.

Nevermind.  On closer inspection and with help from older posts with good pictures in this thread, I satisfied myself that it is the real deal and not, as initially suspected, the type 3 repro.  I took the leap (after convincing my incredulous wife that it wasn't such a terrible idea because it won't lose its value) and now have it on layaway.

[Percy Chapman]

Well done David.

I regularly use the "investment" line when attempting to convince my wife...or myself for that matter on militaria purchases.

 

[davidck]

I don't pitch it quite like that, because I don't plan to eventually sell it at a higher price.  But it's an appreciating asset, in the sense that it is only like to go up in value with time, which means that it can always be sold if we fall on hard times.  Buying collectibles doesn't actually decrease one's net worth.  But like you said, that's probably what I say to convince myself as much as it is to convince her. :-)

[Percy Chapman]

Agreed David...I really don't plan to sell many of the items I purchase as well unless to get a better quality example. I buy them because that is what I like or want. But it does indeed help to convince one's self. :-)

[davidck]

After paying it off over 6 months, it finally arrived.

[lambert]

Wow !!! Perfect !

Congratulations David .. great acquisition! !

 

Lambert

[Percy Chapman]

A long wait David, but well worth it in the end. Looks great.

[RobW]

Hello david,

A nice example that you have waited patiently for. Sometimes the rarer examples are worth the wait. I would replace the current ribbon (as it is a latter US type) and replace it with some nice French made ribbon. That would  make your example more correct to type.

Regards,
Rob

[macchianera72]

Congratulations David,

love your medal 

[sumserbrown]

On 30/03/2013 at 15:45, ThaiDave said:

Team,

 

RE: Thai / Siam Interallied Victory Medal Study - Copies, Reproductions, and Fakes

 

For about 6 years now I've been meaning to put together more information on Thai WW1 Interallied Victory Medal copies, and I've been closely following all sales I can find since then. I've several examples of this medal, both genuine and copy/fake, and about 150 photos of other examples (however, mostly low resolution as many come from the internet).

 

Under close examination, normally it is not so difficult to distinguish between a genuine example and a copy when compared side by side. I've posted good quality pictures of genuine example and also some common copies on the medal forums, which should be sufficient to make this determination in most cases.

 

Some time back I started, but didn't yet finish, a pictorial book of high resolution photos of different examples (see attached draft cover). I planned to make it a small private book via lulu.com (where I did my other draft Indochina medal books - in parallel to my web site www.indochinamedals.com). However, I wanted to get more example photos - especially different copies, and more information about when people have been finding these copies.

 

Therefore, this is a request for anyone who has an example of a Thai WW1 Interallied Victory Medal - genuine and also copies (other than the two museum copies), to send me a high resolution photo / scan in good sharpness. In exchange, I will send you a printed copy of the book which will include the other example hi-resolution pictures.

 

Likewise, I'd been keen to know if anyone has more specific information of purchase of various copies - especially purchase dates. i.e. How early back has Shank been selling his copies ? How early back did Blass start selling his copies - (Laslo Repro #2). Does anyone know the source of other copies ? How many have these copiers made ? Or any other information about other copies.

Likewise, if anyone has any other references for this medal, in other published sources, this would be useful - including other books which might have a small section on it. Perhaps also any old manufacturer catalogs, if there are really any other manufacturers other than the first run (i.e. the Delande remake - which is not actually documented anywhere that is public so far, or any potential others) ?

 

For anyone interested, send me a PM or email.

 

Rgds,

Dave

____________________________

 

Background:

 

There is a known genuine issue of this medal estimated about 1500 pieces. There are two reported “contemporary reproductions” of undocumented age (however one of these is reportedly manufactured by Ernst Blass). There are many known different copies of unknown age. There are at least four known current active production copies, two of which are regularly confused with the genuine type.

 

The known in-depth published information about this medal is in only one publication (Alexander Laslo – The Interallied Victory Medals of WW1). There are no known other published detailed articles, however there are probably many briefer descriptions available in other books.

 

Because of the few number of genuine pieces, and high foreign interest coupled with low local interest, most of them are probably now outside their original country Thailand. Even so, Thai dealers/collectors are secretive with knowledge about medals and foreign made copies of this medal are both manufactured locally and imported to sell locally to unsuspecting foreigners. There are at least one or two known copy examples currently made in Thailand.

 

Even without this specific knowledge, there is a large cottage medal making and medal copying industry in Thailand (mainly Buddhist amulets and Rama V medals), and it would not be difficult for a dedicated and/or resourceful person to make these medals. Some of the Thai copies of other medals are so well made that major dealers and auction houses cannot distinguish they are copies. In the field of coins, very high quality organized copying of valuable machine-struck coins that are difficult to detect for even experts has been rampant for decades - although this has occurred in several places around the world, in modern times in China this is government supported, well funded, and an organized effort. (Here is a little on medal counterfeiting here: http://www.omsa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=646 )

 

Current prices for known copies advertised as copies are around $30-50. Current prices for genuine pieces are between $1500 and $3000 depending on various factors. Laslo Reproductions 1 & 2 can regularly be found at $200-500 depending on various factors. Dubious pieces can routinely achieve now up to $600 (previously sometimes up to $800 and more). Dishonest sellers will often claim ignorance or portray obscure potential sources, probably to realize a higher price. Although most sellers are honest, some sellers often know the medals are copies when they sell them, some sellers don't care about authenticity, and some sellers just don't know.

 

Current copies are often poor enough that an experienced collector can detect them with a sufficient amount of examination, however some copies are good enough that experienced collectors have difficulty to detect them without detailed comparison with a genuine specimen.

 

My feeling is that the technology is simply available (or will be soon enough) to manufacture very excellent copies for a dedicated person that would be difficult to detect for any but an expert. Further, that there will be perhaps no experts available with the skill to detect these copies. Also, those that should be experts (major dealers & auction houses) do not always have the interest to make very difficult or thorough investigation on this.

 

I also believe that at this time, there possibly exists a pool of knowledgeable collectors who have scattered specimens, scattered information, and scattered personal history available - which can be collected together to obtain a more complete picture. Much of this information however may ultimately be lost as the personal files get destroyed and as these specimens get transferred to the next generation where they will be spread amongst a larger and looser collecting community which will not be able to compare them together as might have been previously possible.

 

Hi Dave,

I am back on the forum again after some time and finally re-found my Siam victory medal, which I had in carelessly misplaced! Here is a photo; I am hoping it is genuine....

Rob