American (US) Victory Medals

[Bilco]

Hi Gents - My only US vic so far:

I think it's a Type 2 - planchet 2mm thick at the 3 and 9 o'clock - and the 'GRAND FLEET' clasp looks OK from the front. However, I haven't come across a pic of the reverse, and I'm wondering if the very thin backstrap is right. There is nothing impressed on the backstrap, nor on the rim of the medal.

Any comments welcome.

Bill

[Tim B]

Hi Bill,

It appears to be a Fulford IIa type clasp. Notice the overall reddish copper color and the narrow silver backstrap. It also has the correct number of rope segments. According to Laslo, after all the production numbers evened out, about 7500 of these clasps were produced by Fulford.

Tim

I had posted this one back in the old thread on page 33, but here it is again for easier reference:

[Tim B]

closeup of the clasp:

[Bilco]

Hi Tim - Thanks for that. I had missed the posts showing the thick and thin backstraps on Navy clasps, so it is useful to review page 33.

Those US clasps are a field of their own!

Bill

[Tim B]

Hi Bill,

Absolutely! I had originally thought we could add a specific forum thread dedicated just to the various clasp, MID's, etc. However, I reconsidered it, as most of those attachments apply to the US Vic and we might lose out on posting the other countries that have attachments.

Off the top of head, we would have these countries to consider:

Belgium: Mother's/Widows bar

British: MID

Portuguese: Frames and stars

US: Army clasps, both service and campaign; Navy clasps; Stars, to include the ones on service ribbons, maltese cross

Fantasy: French and US

Think I got everything here. Anyway, you can see the brunt would be US specific, as they have a vast amount of different devices to discuss. So, for now, I think it best to leave these in their respective countries. We can always break them out separately down the road if needed.

Tim

[Tim B]

I meant to get back on the issue of that open knob on the Vic posted in posts #12-14. I had emailed Rob to see if he knew and he responded that he had seen these before, though never opened up like mine. Thought it was a case of the knob being soldered on upside down, where the "cut" would have been on the bottom.

Didn't seem to have any real issues with the piece, so I am happy to learn/know that!

Tim

[lambert]

Thought it was a case of the knob being soldered on upside down, where the "cut" would have been on the bottom.

Well Tim, I just thought this hypothesis:

This would be one of the most plausible answers, one mistake can always happen in the production of MVs. this was not the first time.

[Tim B]

Hi Lambert,

Yes, I thought I remembered seeing one or discussing another example in the past but, couldn't find anything in my searches. Was nice to hear it was okay and just an anomaly occasionally seen.

Tim

[Bilco]

Hi Gents - I posted pics of my US vic with the Navy bar 'Grand Fleet' in post #19. I've just acquired another US vic with the Army sector bar 'France', and there are some interesting differences that I'd appreciate comments on. First the pictures:

Obverse

Reverse

Close-up of the France bar

The colour of this medal is patinated bronze, while the one in posting #19 has a gold finish that has worn off the high points, and the left side of the obverse has lost some of the gold surface.

The suspension on the new medal has the same bevelled knob as the other, but it doesn't have the thick ring of solder attaching it to the planchet - in fact it looks rather fragile in comparison.

The 'France' bar matches the colour of the new medal, and has no markings on the back strap. It has pulled the edges of the ribbon in, and I found that the ribbon is 39mm wide. The ribbon on the earlier medal is 36mm wide, hence the pulling in, so it looks like the ribbon is a replacement - the British ribbon is 39mm wide.

I guess the differences are down to different manufacturers. I notice that both medals have the name FRAZER in tiny raised letters on the right side of the tump that Victory is standing on - Laslo gives James Frazer as the designer, but doesn't seem to mention that the name is on the medal.

Any comments welcome.

Bill

[johnnymac]

First thing that I notice is the ribbon is wrong and you may correct that it is a UK modern made.

To me the reverse side does not look right? is the medal a 35mm or 36mm?

[Bilco]

The planchet is 36mm across, and 2mm thick at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.

Bill

[Tim B]

Hi Bill,

As Jim alreadly stated, the ribbon has been replaced on the one you show.

IMO,

The France clasp is okay as is the medal pendant. The suspension knob does appear weakly soldered to the pendant however, I have noticed a wide variety of solder jobs from piece to piece when comparing examples in my collection as well. Using my previous (Russia clasp) example I posted above, I think the split in the knob was supposed to be placed downward where the solder was normally applied. Perhaps, this provides a flatter surface or larger surface area when compared to the knob ridge on the upper/lower point.

As far as surface finish/coloration/tone. Some of these medals have held their finish on the pendant and clasps better than others over time. Not sure if it was a manufacturer's process or just a case where some were not as nicely finish coated in the process. We see this even in later produced items.

Here's one of my 28th Div. pieces and you can see the finish has worn more in places than others, so the tone varies from golden to dull dark bronze.

I think your's is fine, with a replaced ribbon.

Tim

[Bilco]

Hi Tim - Many thanks for your opinion on my latest US vic. To highlight the finish I've photographed my two examples side by side:

Obverse

Reverse

It looks like my Navy one has similar loss of the gold finish to yours, just on the upper left area of the obverse. From remarks on earlier postings about the US issue I'm not sure if the gold finish was a paint or some form of anodizing, but I guess that the durability of the finish is affected by the surface of the underlaying metal. So, if there is moisture or oil from handling on the metal, the gold finish won't adhere so well. Or perhaps the finish is affected by the atmosphere the medal is kept in over the years. My new example doesn't seem to have any gold on the medal or the clasp!

Bill

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

A question about the US Official Type 1, "wire-loop" version. I've seen 5 of these for sale in the last day or two, one has an old, ragged ribbon and a bit of a patina, while the others, 2 in UK and 2 in the US, look pristine - medal, ribbon and pin bar (none of them have clasps).

Are these 4 likely to be fakes or modern repros? Was the "wire-loop" version much less common, and so worth faking? I'd really like to have this version, but don't want to be ripped off!

Bill

[johnnymac]

Bill

99% of what you might see as a type-1 is a modern reproduction. The first thing I would check for a type-1 is the the thickness which is 3mm+ with OD of 36mm. Do not look at color or ribbon as both can be and will be aged. The type-1 is rare!

Regards, Jim M. (Johnnymac)

[Bilco]

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for your comments. I think the 2 dubious UK items come from the same source as the 2 US ones - http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2c5d008eb8 The description shows them as new, and the price asked is a bit of a give-away.

The item that does look good http://www.picardyan...6aid%3DS1959%26 is on a completely different level as far as price is concerned, although the 'Submarine' clasp may also have something to do with it!

Oh well, I'll just have to dream for a while longer.

Bill

Edited November 4, 2011 by Bilco

[johnnymac]

The second one is also a modern repro. (the one you marked as it looked good).

The Submarine clasp (Art Medal Works inc) is good and maybe the ribbon!

Edited November 4, 2011 by johnnymac

[Bilco]

Hi Jim,

Oh dear! I wonder if they know. It's also on e-bay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Inter-Allied-Victory-Medal-U-S-Submarine-bar-s1881-/350467174464?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item519978b040 where they give their policy on not offering " copies, replicas or restrikes".

Please enlighten me on what you see that shows it up as a modern repro - I desperately need this sort of knowledge!

Bill

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

Well, having given up on the Type 1, I've just acquired this Type 2 with 2 clasps:

Close-up of obverse ....

... and the clasps

The Meuse - Argonne clasp has spacer pieces.

Reverse pics in a separate posting.

Bill

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

Pictures of the reverse:

Close-ups:

Looks OK to my uneducated eye - any comments welcome.

Bill

[lambert]

Hi Bill

Great medal, I also have one with this same configuration .. is quite common, but indispensable to a well-built collection.

Congratulations!

Lambert

[johnnymac]

Bill & Lambert

The 6th, 29th, 36th, 79th, 81st, 88th, and 92nd Division are but a few units that would have received your combination of clasps, and that does not take-in all the other individual soldiers. To you both, your medals with the Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps are in excellent condition, thanks for posting them.

Jim M.

Edited November 10, 2011 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

This is one of my favorite medals.

Jim M.

[RobW]

Are these 4 likely to be fakes or modern repros? Was the "wire-loop" version much less common, and so worth faking? I'd really like to have this version, but don't want to be ripped off!

Bill

Hello Bill,

To add to JM's comments, the type 1 are definitely rare. I have a large number of US vics in my collection and only 3 type 1's.

They do occasionally come up on the myriad of auction sites, but you have to ask questions about the planchet thickness and have good quality pictures to scrutinise. Additionally you have to know what you are looking at in order to avoid obtaining a modern copy that has a wire suspender compared to an authentic period piece from the 1920s.

Have fun in your search.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 14, 2011 by RobW

[johnnymac]

Rob,

I personally do not think the type-1 was truly a official issue medal. I, like you Rob, have several of them. With that said, I also feel a true type-1 adds a nice touch to anyone's collection.

This weekend I with 3 other friends when to Washington DC, to the Arlington which is our national cemetery for the U.S. Veterans Day (Nov, 11, 2011). We watched our President lay the wreath at the unknown soldier tomb. We then went to Vietnam Veterans Memorial "The Wall" where the 4 of us have listed names of our friends on the "Wall". One of the names on the wall, was my classmate and friend, Johnny. You will note I use JohnnyMac as my handle, when fact my name is Jim. Our next stop was the World War II Memorial to honor ours fathers. We made the last stop at the World War I memorial to honor my grandmothers brother.

I posted a photo of just one of the many U.S. hero's in this cemetery.

Jim M.