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The 94th was entitled to these, Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps.

The 93rd was entitled to these, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps.

This is what each of these two Units would have entitled to up to 1922. As to what each man received I am not sure.

Yet, In 1922 there were slight changes made to a few of the different units clasp count. But by then 97% of the medals had already been issued so I fell it did not factor in what your man received and would have been more for historical count.

Jim

Hi Jim, Thanks for the input. Its not that I question your expertise on this point (I have none!), but may I ask what is your refernce for the battle clasps for the 93rd & 94th Aero Squadrons? Thanks.

Jay

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Hi Gents,

An unusual US Vic on eBay, item no 330829393381

Bill

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Battle Participation of Organizations of the American Expeditionary Forces in France, Belgium and Italy, 1917-1918. printed in 1920.

Also in the pamphlet WWI Campaign and Service credits which was printed in June 1996 the 93rd is still the same. Where-as the 94th has an added clasp "Oise-Aisne".

To this pamphlet were added up dates or changes in 1922,1923, 1926, 1927, 1930 and 1937. But, very very little changed from 1920. Also remember by 1922 most of the victory medals had been awarded. These changes were more for history.

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Hi Gents,

An unusual US Vic on eBay, item no 330829393381

Bill

Hi Bill,

Is odd medal.

The medal is ancient and the ribbon doesn't match with it, seems to be a British replacement, and has something different in the clasp, the letters are equal to the official and the star also ... but the spacers seems to me to be a molded part, not folded as the other models?

Of course, that is my opinion ... The specialist is the Jim :)

Jim, I would like to know what you think.

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Hi Lambert,

I think the clasps have Navy titles but are in Army format -

USengraved04.jpg

I'm not sure about the medal - an odd colour. This seller has another for sale - item no 330829385526 - which is a similar colour, and suspect clasps.

Bill

Edited by Bilco

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The clasps are French made and are also done in the Army style not the Navy style. The ribbon is a British made repro ribbon. Someone who was in the Navy would not have only been entitled to more than one clasp.

Edited by johnnymac

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The clasps are French made and are also done in the Army style not the Navy style. The ribbon is a British made repro ribbon. Someone who was in the Navy would not have only been entitled to more than one clasp.

Hi Jim

I remember you mentioned it in this topic (page 2 # 62) are staples false.

Lambert

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Hi Lambert,

I think the clasps have Navy titles but are in Army format -

USengraved04.jpg

I'm not sure about the medal - an odd colour. This seller has another for sale - item no 330829385526 - which is a similar colour, and suspect clasps.

Bill

Bill, I definitely would not venture to these medals, seems to me a mounting fantasy. Fake!

Lambert

Edited by lambert

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Hi Lambert,

Yes - I agree. It all adds to our knowledge, though

Bill

Edited by Bilco

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WOW! Looking at the way the bidding went, someone really wanted that medal - a $170 jump in the bid - and then lost out by $5 to another one.

These fantasy clasps could be an interesting line to collect - but not for silly money. At least I was able to copy the photos and add them to my files. Free knowledge is the best!

Bill

Edited by Bilco

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Hello Bill,

While the French made clasps are an interesting sideline, I would suspect the fact that the medal is engraved on the front and rim, is probably what attracted the attention. The US vic is seen occasionally with engraving of the recipients details on the obverse of the planchet but in this case it was related to the actual base, and the specific area, and still has the recipients details on the rim. That is unusual and certainly worth the attention.

Noting the fact that Navy and Marine Corps personnel were only entitled to wear one clasp, irrespective of further qualifying service that would have accrued subsequent clasps, I would think that maybe the recipient served at the naval base in Cardiff on a Destroyer and then had later service in the White Sea in support of the Siberian expedition. This is, of course supposition but if the recipient wanted to accurately show all of their service the use of French produced clasps was one way to achieve that.

Having a name inscribed on the rim would lead to possible research options. All in all a nice piece worthy of a place in a vic collection.

Regards,

Rob

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Hi Rob,

I see what you mean - the name and other engraving are unusual. The other vic with the suspect Italy clasp wouldn't be nearly so attractive.

If he did serve on destroyers presumably he would have received the Navy Destroyer clasp. I guess he wanted to show all his service on clasps that matched, rather than mix Navy and Army formats.

I have seen French and other fantasy clasps offered on eBay, but the prices are high.

Bill

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Bill, what are the chances of the same dealer having the two medals for two different persons, having the same type enhancement and same ribbon, 1 million to one? I believe she the dealer, purchased these two from the same person for resale.

Let's just say "Lieut J.G. Chas Woodall" wanted to enhance his medal with different clasps to show where he had served.

1. Writing on the medal "English Channel at Naval Base 29 Cardiff Wales": Cardiff is an exporting port of coal located on the west side of England. It is a small port but it exported near half of all England's coal. I can see it supporting a few Naval ships like a Destroyer or Mine Sweepers to keep the port open.

2. On the rim (which we did not see) was "Lieut" J.G. Chas. Woodall. J.G. stands for "Junior Grade" and in 1898, the U.S. Naval officer register book listed him as being appointed as an ensign, which is just one grade below a Lieut. J.G. You would think, he would moved up more than just one grade in 20 years. But of course, we do not know his story.

3. In regards to his 3 clasps, you asked why he didn't just add the White Sea and Asiatic to his already awarded U.S issued Destroyer clasps if he truly was entitled to a Destroyer clasp?

4. The unofficial army style French made clasp "White Sea" was used for the men who sailed to Russia. It is possible that his ship was pulled from Wales and sailed with the White Sea fleet to Russia.

5. The unofficial army style French made clasp "Asiatic" was used for the men who sailed to Siberia. This is not possible. His ship could not be in two places at the same time. Besides even if we were work some type of timing you then would have ask?, There were hundreds of Destroyers on the West Coast of the USA that would have sailed to Siberia with the "Asiatic Fleet" would they have waited for this lone Destroyer. I did check records for any ships being in both places. I could not find any, "none"?

6. When you, Bill, posted this medal, I questioned and asked myself, Why? If the seasoned Junior Grade Lieutenant wanted to enhance his medal, he could have done it right: He could have left his Victory Medal with his name on the Rim, with the issued Destroyer clasp on the original ribbon and just added the names "White Sea and Asiatic" to the engraving under the word "Wales", where there was enough space.

7. As to the age of a medal, you can oxides brass using a process done on antique rifles brass. You need white vinegar, table salt, hot and cold water and a bucket. You soak the brass object in the bucket filled with 1/2 cup of the white vinegar with 1 Tbsp of table salt. Add hot tap water until the item is covered by the solution. Let it soak for about 20 minutes. Take the brass piece from the bucket and run warm clean tap water over the piece. Rinse clean under warm tap water and dry immediately so you don't get water spots. You may get whitening around edges. (Note the whitening around the sword and lady).

To many things going on here with this medal.

Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Hi Jim,

Many thanks for a very comprehensive run-down on the clasps and medal. So many traps for young players! I must admit, I thought the colour of the medal was odd, and to see two with that colouring, plus suspect clasps ....

It all goes into my knowledge files :cheers:

Bill

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Bill, remember this is all speculation on my part, but using some of my own logic. If the price had not reached no more than $75 I think it would have been a good buy as Rob said.

You see I think alone the lines, if are selling a car as a classic 1960 Ford Mustang and it has a 451HP Chevy engine and a Dodge transmission is it truly a classic or is just a 1960 parts car? The value is not there.

Jim

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Hi Jim - I was just looking at the photos of the reverses of the two medals. The Navy one has matching backstraps, but the Army one only shows 3 backstraps, one thin and two wider. Otherwise, on the Army one I see a Sector clasp with stars, a Sector clasp with Battle clasps, and different fonts for the lettering between the top two clasps and the bottom two. (This is a non-exhaustive list)

Bill

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The front & back of the $311 medal match, the front & back of the $39 do not. So I ask was there a third medal which the seller mixed up the front & back of 2 medal???

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Hello all,
Here are some of my medals U.S. victory.
A breakthrough, a second with different documents and the last "MADE IN FRANCE", some strips inside door "MADE IN FRANCE" or outside of the collet.
Regard
Jean-Michel

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