American (US) Victory Medals

[Bosungus]

Thanks for the information. I ask because i saw a WW1 US Navy Victory medal on Synderstreasures

that had the Aviation & France bar yet I could not find any reference for the France authorization.

http://snyderstreasures.com/pages/uswwivictorymedals.htm

Would this be a later add on?

Thanks, Bosungus

[Tim B]

Bosungus,

If you don't want to lose money on worthless junk, avoid Charlie Snyder at all costs. If he lists anything original, it's marked up about 400% from other ebay listings. Search his name on just about any forum and you'll get the information you need to know.

Be advised, he has others helping him move his junk on ebay as well. You usually find these sellers that mention they have "other militaria, including WWII German" that they need to sell, but can't list it on ebay. Anytime they offer to send you pictures or descriptions and list his site as a reference or where you can buy them--RUN!

This isn't the clown where you got your .835 u-boat badge from, is it?

Tim

[Bosungus]

Hi Tim B,

I have never purchased anything from him . The Victory medal I mentioned is not on E-Bay but on his web site.

I was just curious as I have a collection of WW1 US Victory medals and never saw the France Navy clasp listed as

authorized and synderstreasures has what appears to be an authentic aviation clasp coupled with a France bar.

however I now thoroughly understand that the France clasp is clearly not authentic. I was interested because I know the Navy

had clasps for Russia & Siberia.

Thanks for the info.

Bosungus

[RobW]

Question:

Did the US Navy issue a France clasp for WW1 US Victory medal? I noticed an Aviation clasp along with a France clasp on a WW1US Victory medal

and wonder if the France was an authorized clasp.

Thanks

Hello Bosungus,

As has been indicated in post #332 the Army service clasps were all eventually authorised for duty ashore in the relevant areas under certain timeframes.

The point that needs to be made is that these country (service) clasps that were authorised for Navy & Marine Corps personnel were of the Army format and hence would be the same as the regular service clasps issued to Army personnel. As the Navy adopted a one clasp only rule, only one such clasp, either Navy format or Army format if qualified, could be worn.

While it is not unusual to see combined Army & Navy clasp combinations this is usually seen in the form of a Navy AVIATION clasp and an Army battle or engagement clasp. While it would not be unusual to see a Navy or Marine Corps medal with an Army service clasp I would suggest that it would be rare as the permission to wear such Army clasps was approved quite a few years after the conclusion of the Great War (First World War). It would be expected that the majority of Navy & Marine Corps personnel would have already been awarded their medal with corresponding Navy clasp so would not have needed to apply for an Army clasp at a much later date.

Of course this does not discount the possibility of a later re-issue or replacement medal being requested that may have had such a combination, or the fact that a veteran simply put the clasps he felt he was entitled to on his medal.

There are numerous other examples of unofficial strikes of Army clasps, in the Navy rope bordered format seen in the market.

Regards,

Rob

Edited March 12, 2010 by RobW

[Bosungus]

Thanks RobW, for the clarification

Bosungus

[Noor]

and US single ribbon bar - guy, who got as well Silver Star from WW1

Edited March 12, 2010 by Noor

[Noor]

France style Victory medal pin system single ribbon bar

[RobW]

Question:

Did the US Navy issue a France clasp for WW1 US Victory medal? I noticed an Aviation clasp along with a France clasp on a WW1US Victory medal

and wonder if the France was an authorized clasp.

Thanks

Hello Bosungus,

To further illustrate here is a US vic with a reproduction type FRANCE clasp in Navy format.

These reproduction type clasps are recognisable by the pebbled background and uneven rope loops on the edges. The original strikes have a smooth background.

Regards,

Rob

Edited March 13, 2010 by RobW

[johnnymac]

Thanks for the information. I ask because i saw a WW1 US Navy Victory medal on Synderstreasures

that had the Aviation & France bar yet I could not find any reference for the France authorization.

http://snyderstreasu...ctorymedals.htm

Would this be a later add on?

Thanks, Bosungus

Hello Bosungus

Here is another one but of England

Regards JM (JohnnyMac)

Edited March 13, 2010 by johnnymac

[Bosungus]

Hi,

As a point of clarification are the following clasps Navy Service authorized, In this case including the France clasp? "The U.S. Navy issued similar service clasps to the Army for service in the following regions during the following periods: (Wikipedia)

• England (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)
• France (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)
• Italy (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)
• Russia (November 12, 1918 to July 31, 1919)
• Siberia (November 12, 1918 to March 30, 1920)
• West Indies (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)"

thanks, Bosungus

[johnnymac]

Hi,

As a point of clarification are the following clasps Navy Service authorized, In this case including the France clasp? "The U.S. Navy issued similar service clasps to the Army for service in the following regions during the following periods: (Wikipedia)

• England (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)
• France (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)
• Italy (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)
• Russia (November 12, 1918 to July 31, 1919)
• Siberia (November 12, 1918 to March 30, 1920)
• West Indies (April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918)"

thanks, Bosungus

Hello Bosungus

SEA DUTY

RUSSIA and SIBERIA: "For service on any vessel" which made a Russian port during such service from 06 April 1917 to 11 Nov. 1918, or any combatant ship in a Russian port on the White Sea not less than 10 days from 12 Nov. 1918 to 31 July 1919.

SHORE DUTY

Up to 1933 the naval personnel on shore duty in Russia & Siberia were only awarded the Victory medal, no clasp/bar. In 1933, the Navy extended the "Army's" Russia and Siberia service clasps to naval personnel, "For service on shore" in Northern Russia & Siberia, from 12 November 1918 to 31 July 1919.

Does this help, JM (JohnnyMac)

Edited March 14, 2010 by johnnymac

[Bosungus]

Yes Johnnymac,

thanks, Bosungus

[johnnymac]

Off subject just for a moment.

To All

I need some help on identifying: 1) The other collar insignia next to the collar disk with crossed cannons. 2) Also the eagle to the right of the Victory medal. 3) Last the medal to the left of the Victory medal and the 2 ribbons above.



I just purchased this photo and it is signed by a Sgt. Alex Arch, 6^th Field Artillery, 1^St Division. He was credited pulling the lanyard on a French 75mm and firing the first U.S. Artillery piece in WWI for the AEF.



Thanks JM

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2010/post-8368-127689646284.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2010/post-8368-127689647636.jpg

Edited February 18, 2013 by IrishGunner

[RobW]

Off subject just for a moment.

To All

I need some help on identifying: 1) The other collar insignia next to the collar disk with crossed cannons. 2) Also the eagle to the right of the Victory medal. 3) Last the medal to the left of the Victory medal and the 2 ribbons above.

I just purchased this photo and it is signed by a Sgt. Alex Arch, 6^th Field Artillery, 1^St Division. He was credited pulling the lanyard on a French 75mm and firing the first U.S. Artillery piece in WWI for the AEF.

Thanks JM

Hello JM,

While I have not a lot of experience in US medals I think the medal to the left of the US vic could be: The Mexican Service Medal - Army, and I say that purely because of the ribbon stripes in the close-up. What may aid in researching this gentleman is the fact that he is wearing a silver citation star on his vic.

In regards the ribbon bar pair above the vic I think the ribbon to the left is the 'International ribbon' that was worn by a lot of recipients immediately following the Great War. It is commonly seen with the 'Veterans of Foreign Wars' ribbon. Here is a pic for reference.

Regards,
Rob

Edited February 18, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Bosungus]

Anyoe have knowledge of the number 3 on a WW1 US Victory medal?

[RobW]

Anyone have knowledge of the number 3 on a WW1 US Victory medal?

Hello Bosungus,

I have seen bronze and silver numerals affixed to both Navy and Marine Corps Expeditionary medals but not the vic. In the other cases these numerals were used to identify the number of expeditions the individual served on. I would suggest that the number on the vic ribbon probably represents the number of engagement bars that were awarded and present on the medal.

The only approved method of indicating such engagement bars were the small bronze stars that were affixed to the ribbon.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

To those US vic collectors who participate on this thread,

Here are some pics of some engagement (battle) clasps to the US vic. Some collectors have suggested that these were produced in France but the collectors who I have corresponded with in France do not agree.

There are no markings on the reverse backstrap or reverse of the bar itself, as is usually the case with items produced in France, and there are file striations on the top and bottom edges of the bar showing signs of manufacture. The stars and font used are not consistent with French manufactured items.

Do any US collectors have any idea as to the background to these bars?

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

To those US vic collectors who participate on this thread,

Here are some pics of some engagement (battle) clasps to the US vic. Some collectors have suggested that these were produced in France but the collectors who I have corresponded with in France do not agree.

There are no markings on the reverse backstrap or reverse of the bar itself, as is usually the case with items produced in France, and there are file striations on the top and bottom edges of the bar showing signs of manufacture. The stars and font used are not consistent with French manufactured items.

Do any US collectors have any idea as to the background to these bars?

Regards,

Rob

To Rob,

If the French collectors do not feel that they are French made, then who do they think made your style clasps? If you examine my photo you will note that all three clasps have different type stars yet all three are of the same quality, and the same lettering style. They are not Bailey, Banks, & Biddle Co., as they stamped everything with their hallmark. They are not U.S. issue nor are they from the U.S. Mint. So that leaves us with either Czech or maybe Italy if they are not French made. We know that the French were producing early repros of the battle and we know they also did a series listing unauthorized campaign clasps for sale to the Veterans, mainly U.S. Veterans. Looking at Laslo's U.S. Repro 1a, figure 118, page 86, I found that these clasps plus this medal might be a good match as I have both the medal and the clasps. When you put them side by side you can see the color and the quality are the same. Is this the final word no but I feel it is a good place to start.

JM

Question is Alex Laslo still alive and if so, does he have a web site.

Edited June 28, 2010 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

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Thanks for the comments eyeryone, it's nice to know the ribbon is a little different than standard. The opposite side of the ribbon is cleaner and therefore shows the colouring a little better.

Kev, I think I'll probably leave the brooch in it's grubby state, it looks much better in the hand than in the photo.

I'll post the conduct sheet for the Brit. VM soldier in the commonwealth forum over the weekend if anyone's interested in reading it.

Below is the cleaner side of the Czech ribbon.

Tony

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[Kev in Deva]

Question is Alex Laslo still alive and if so, does he have a web site.

Sadly Captain Laslo passed away a few years ago, may he +Rest In Peace +

[Tim B]

Concerning the manufacture/origin of those battle clasps thought to be French produced. Do we know how many French manufacturers actually produced clasps for these medals?

Since collecting French ODM's, I have found that there were several manufacturers producing a wide variety of items during this period, and can only assume more than just a few might have also produced these clasps, official or otherwise. I have to lean towards what JM is alluding to and ask, if not the French, then who?

IMO, the market would have been French and the US, not other countries that didn't utilize these clasps for their medals, nor had large after market demands for "foreign" pieces. Based on how many countries had France producing their ODM's at one point or other in time, and the prolific number of manufacturers that produced official and unofficial awards, I would put my money on the French being the source here.

Just my opinions.

Tim

[johnnymac]

Changing subject for moment

To all,

Need a little help here,

This is my own Navy medal (A) and as you can see it has an official ribbon and clasp. Also you can see that the thread colors flow continuously from one side to the other and it shows proper aging.

But, (B) I have been seeing more and more of this broken thread type ribbon on Vic's with official clasps on them. All example I have seen show corner wear but not true aging.

My question is, is there any info on this ribbon.


Thanks Johnnymac (JM)

Edited February 18, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Tim B]

JM,

I don't think I have ever seen these, or really noticed them before to be honest. I would have normally assumed the "breaks" to be just a play of the lighting in the PIC, but now will keep my eyes out a little more to see if I find any of this style.

Is there a particular seller that is using these?

Regards,

Tim

[RobW]

Changing subject for moment

To all,

Need a little help here,

This is my own Navy medal (A) and as you can see it has an official ribbon and clasp. Also you can see that the thread colors flow continuously from one side to the other and it shows proper aging.

But, (B) I have been seeing more and more of this broken thread type ribbon on Vic's with official clasps on them. All example I have seen show corner wear but not true aging.

My question is, is there any info on this ribbon.

Thanks Johnnymac (JM)

Hello JM,

I don't believe that there is too much to the differences in the ribbons. If the medal has the correct bar / clasp, and it is correctly fixed, the medal has the correct purple thread at the top affixing the ribbon to the brooch and the brooch is the correct type I would say all is good. Considering the vast scale of production of this medal, in in the large quantities of US vics that were produced I would suggest that some variations in the ribbons used would be inevitable.

The way I view it is if the whole package looks okay, (medal, ribbon, bar / clasps, and brooch) and the wear is consistent then I am happy. Just my 2c.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Here's an interesting one. I see on page 18 of "Battle Participation of Organizations of the American Expeditionary Forces in France, Belgium, and Italy. 1917-1918", that the US 28th Division, 53rd Field Artillery Brigade, had three field artillery units (battalions?) (107th; 108th; 109th) that qualified for the Ypres-Lys Offensive bar.

The particular combination of bars varies considerably from the normal 28th Division examples that have both the Champagne-Marne and Aisne-Marne bars and not the Ypres-Lys clasp. As discussed sometime back, the Laslo and Nixon matrix's do not cover these minor variations.

Something I noticed about the reference though. It's basically divided into two parts; the first part: Battle Participations of Each Organizations, and the second part: Organizations Participating in Each Major Operation and Sector. Looking at the 53rd Field Artillery Brigade as an example, I see it listed in the first section and showing it was entitled to the Ypres-Lys bar. However, under the second section, the 53rd Field Artillery is not mentioned under the Ypres-Lys campaign.

That got me thinking, and I wonder if maybe this is why Laslo removed the matrix after his first edition, because of these inconsistencies in the War Department reference and that a simple matrix could not account for all the possible variations of individual cases and these remaining inconsistencies in the War Department reference. We know they added units, evidenced by the errata pages in the front, but were there more?

Anyway, here's an example:

Tim