Neeed help on Old Oldenburg Cross

[army historian]

Hello all I need help in identifying this Oldenburg War Cross from Frederick Ludwig's time. Any info: when awarded; name; value; ribbon; etc. Thanks Cheers Captain Albert

[M Hunter]

I believe the name is House Order of Duke Peter Friedrich Ludwig Honour Cross 3rd Class with swords awarded 1856-1918. The ribbon is the same as the Oldenburg Friedrich Cross.

Estimated current value could be around €300.

Best wishes

Matt

[army historian]

Thank you Matt, that is very helpful. Andreas Ising said there were only 600 awarded over it's entire period of award. The ribbon is the same as the Oldenburg House Order (Blue with red edges). I plan to fix the hilts. Not bad for a $3.00 investment. Here it is after a little work and with the sales tag. Cheers Captain Albert

Edited June 30, 2011 by army historian

[M Hunter]

Thank you Matt, that is very helpful. Andreas Ising said there were only 600 awarded over it's entire period of award. The ribbon is the same as the Oldenburg House Order (Blue with red edges). I plan to fix the hilts. Not bad for a $3.00 investment. Here it is after a little work and with the sales tag. Cheers Captain Albert

not bad at all!

Best wishes

Matt

[VtwinVince]

Why are the sword handles missing in the first picture?

[Wild Card]

Hello army historian,

Below is an example that might be of some use for comparison. I apologize for it’s quality of detail (matt black crosses are tough),

but there is a point that I would like to pass on.

Notice the cross guards on the swords on both your cross and mine. If you look at various references such as the OEK, you will

invariably see a different (floral) cross guard style from ours, which I recall as being referred to as a Roman style. I remember a

discussion with Eric Ludvigsen about this and as I recall, he said that ours (Roman) are the original design and the “floral” design

was a second/later style.

Hopefully some of our Oldenburg experts can fill us in on this.

Regards,

Wild Card

Edited July 1, 2011 by Wild Card

[Dave Danner]

Hello army historian,

Below is an example that might be of some use for comparison. I apologize for it’s quality of detail (matt black crosses are tough), but there is a point that I would like to pass on.

Notice the cross guards on the swords on both your cross and mine. If you look at various references such as the OEK, you will invariably see a different (floral) cross guard style from ours, which I recall as being referred to as a Roman style. I remember a discussion with Eric Ludvigsen about this and as I recall, he said that ours (Roman) are the original design and the “floral” design was a second/later style.

Hopefully some of our Oldenburg experts can fill us in on this.

Regards,

Wild Card

I am not an Oldenburg expert, or an expert on manufacturing styles of any state. I did write an article a few years ago on the different styles of swords on German decorations, but that has disappeared into the ether with the rest of my web pages. I still hope to rebuild that soon.

I haven't seen any other Oldenburg decorations with the Roman-style hilts you show. From what I have seen, the floral style, which I refer to as "Baroque", is most common. For Oldenburg, this usually has a specific form. The quillons (the parts of the cross-guard that stick out, making it a cross) are in the form of flowers, while the center of the cross-guard is box-shaped, and has a cross within it. Below is a cross from eMedals.ca, along with some other examples of Oldenburg hilts. The two hilts on the top right and top left are from honor crosses like yours, while the other two on the left side are from knight's crosses.

This style seems unique to Oldenburg, although neighboring Hannover appears to have had a similar style. The Hannoverian example here is more elaborate, but it is also for a higher-grade order:

The "Baroque"-style seen on Baden decorations has flowers in the center of the cross-guard.

The Roman style is standard for Prussian decorations. Perhaps Oldenburg crosses with the Roman style hilts were made by Prussian jewelers like Godet, while the Baroque flower style was an Oldenburg court jeweler's version.

[army historian]

Thank you Dave and Wildcard - as you saw in the first pictures the handles of the swords were missing - but the cross guards are original. I thing you may both be correct about the "Roman" style hilts. I am not that familiar with the other German states other than Prussia. WildCard said this might be an earlier version. This Cross was bought in Eureka, CA - USA a small city of about 27,000 - about 90 miles from the Oregon border. A relatively isolated location. No telling where this cross has traveled and ended up here. Again thanks Captain Albert

Edited July 2, 2011 by army historian

[Wild Card]

Hi Dave,

I cannot disagree with any of the points that you raise. As a matter of fact, with all due respect to Eric, I think that your suggestion that the Roman style example might be a jeweler’s variation makes a lot of sense. There are a couple of additional points that I would like to pass on.

1. The example that I posted above actually comes from a medal bar of what I would call “the early period”. See below.

2. In volume 2 of the Klingbeil Collection (Theis edition) there is a second class cross with Roman a style cross guard (#1366) along with a similar third class example (#1370).

3. In the only copy of the statutes of this order that I have,, which is undated, all illustrated insignia with swords have the Baroque style cross guards.

Nothing definitive but some more pieces to the puzzle.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Hello army historian,

I am glad to be of help even if we may not have completely answered the questions raised.

An important aspect to all of this is that you have rescued a piece of history from otherwise certain doom in that it is now back in a world where it is recognized for what it is and it’s importance. The story of the discovery (and rescue) of your cross reminds me of a Hannoverian lifesaving medal that I got from a Jeff Floyd auction about fifteen years ago. This medal had been discovered at a flea market in Indianapolis. It is named to a Lt. Julius Hermann Mertens who was to later become a general in the Prussian army.

Happy Hunting,

Wild Card

[army historian]

Thanks Wild Card, that is a great story and find. Also thank you for the images - I will now know the correct handles to locate for the cross. Should be simple (cheap copy of the Hohenzollern House order) would do great. This also does not damage any real pieces. Yes one thing about finding things miss identified or unknown - is really great as (you said) rescued from the junk pile. Happy hunting - cheers Captain Albert

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello everyone:

This type of cross is 100% correct. These cast iron crosses (your pieces should be magnetic) with "Roman" sword crossguards were issued for the 1870-71 conflict and often appear on groups of this era. These pieces with "Roman" crossguards were defiantely not jeweler's variations. The pieces with the more ornate sword crossguards are of a later manufacture. If I recall correctly it has been speculated that none of the later types were actually awarded (it seems that they were certainly not awarded during the 1914-1918 era). Eric Ludvigsen knew what he was talking about (always).

It seems also that many of these Oldenburg pieces (which are rather scarce) seem to have been discovered by Canadian units towards the end of WWII. There were a few in a collection in the UK a few years back.

Due to these pieces being cast iron, you will probably not be able to find a craftsman (or craftswoman) to repair the sword grips properly. Many pieces on groups have the sword grips broken off. I would leave the piece "as is" it it were mine.

Congratulations regarding the addition of this nice piece to your collection!

ps: Oh yes, Wildcard, I remember the Mertens medal well!

Hi Dave,

I cannot disagree with any of the points that you raise. As a matter of fact, with all due respect to Eric, I think that your suggestion that the Roman style example might be a jeweler’s variation makes a lot of sense. There are a couple of additional points that I would like to pass on.

1. The example that I posted above actually comes from a medal bar of what I would call “the early period”. See below.

2. In volume 2 of the Klingbeil Collection (Theis edition) there is a second class cross with Roman a style cross guard (#1366) along with a similar third class example (#1370).

3. In the only copy of the statutes of this order that I have,, which is undated, all illustrated insignia with swords have the Baroque style cross guards.

Nothing definitive but some more pieces to the puzzle.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[army historian]

Thanks you 'Schießplatzmeister'. That is incredibly helpful. so it is an original piece from the 1870-71 Franco-Prussian War. Great. I have a 5 bar 1870 medal to display with it. Cheers Captain Albert

Hello everyone:

This type of cross is 100% correct. These cast iron crosses (your pieces should be magnetic) with "Roman" sword crossguards were issued for the 1870-71 conflict and often appear on groups of this era. These pieces with "Roman" crossguards were defiantely not jeweler's variations. The pieces with the more ornate sword crossguards are of a later manufacture. If I recall correctly it has been speculated that none of the later types were actually awarded (it seems that they were certainly not awarded during the 1914-1918 era). Eric Ludvigsen knew what he was talking about (always).

It seems also that many of these Oldenburg pieces (which are rather scarce) seem to have been discovered by Canadian units towards the end of WWII. There were a few in a collection in the UK a few years back.

Due to these pieces being cast iron, you will probably not be able to find a craftsman (or craftswoman) to repair the sword grips properly. Many pieces on groups have the sword grips broken off. I would leave the piece "as is" it it were mine.

Congratulations regarding the addition of this nice piece to your collection!

ps: Oh yes, Wildcard, I remember the Mertens medal well!