Bob Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 Not too many venues to purchase them, and getting ever higher. How permanent do you think this is? Supply doesn't seem to be lessening, it's more of an increase in demand it seems.
Ed_Haynes Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 When a good book (Battushig) on a previously "obscure" subject is published, prices go stratospheric.
Stogieman Posted January 20, 2006 Posted January 20, 2006 I'd agree. Anytime there's a decent piece of phaleristic study......... the topic at hand gets very expensive once people figure out what is what. Mongolian is exciting to me and I've bought a bunch of badges and odds and ends, but I have been advised I need to "focus".......... so I'll keep the boxed pieces and the one early order I found. And the Partisan badge/Booklet. But I guess the rest I'll let go. There's now 2 guys in UlanBaatar selling on eBay. Their english is excellent. One guy I've received 2 packages from. First one arrived open...... stuff literally spilling on the floor at my PO. Second one he did tape shut, but bubble pack's paper cover was shredded when it arrived here!Nothing was missing from either package.Second seller's package still has not arrived, one month later.
GlennC Posted January 21, 2006 Posted January 21, 2006 This is small part of my collection. I am buying as many as I can afford. Prices are going up and will continue to rise.
Ed_Haynes Posted January 21, 2006 Posted January 21, 2006 One reason why I seek whatever I can find ... one reason I hope to be in Ulanbaatar this summer ....
Bob Posted January 21, 2006 Author Posted January 21, 2006 One reason why I seek whatever I can find ... one reason I hope to be in Ulanbaatar this summer ....It feels like a scramble to get what's still out there... either prices will continue to rise as a result of which in a year or two for many it will become too expensive to complete their collection with the few missing items, or it's all speculation and the market will crash again... in which case I'll be more than happy to take that opportunity to restock on more of these great orders / medals. Either way, it's a good moment to have a nice stock of Mongolian items here at home in my shoe box:)
NavyFCO Posted January 21, 2006 Posted January 21, 2006 Wearing my pessimist hat today, I think that the value of Mongolian awards will only increase until they are out of reach of the main body of their following... those who are collecting Mongolian awards because Soviet awards are now out of their range of affordability. Compared to Soviet award collectors (which is a relatively small group in relation to US/TR/Brit/etc.) I think Mongolian award collectors will continue to only constitute a very small fraction - driving up prices based on supply and demand amongst the small community. Thus, the prices will only go up as far as this small group will be willing to pay. Unlike Russia, there aren't that many "deep pocket" collectors in Mongolia that are willing to shell out big money for their awards driving up prices like they have on Soviet ones.Just my opinion.....Dave
Bob Posted January 21, 2006 Author Posted January 21, 2006 Some fair points. What's your take though on the number of Chinese / Russians purchasing (whether for trade or collecting) Mongolian items.There are quite some Russian language websites with quite rare items.Perhaps there's a large market of collectors over there... tough competition because they are also becoming more affluent.
Ed_Haynes Posted January 21, 2006 Posted January 21, 2006 How much "collecting" and how much "investing" is underway just now?
NavyFCO Posted January 22, 2006 Posted January 22, 2006 Some fair points. What's your take though on the number of Chinese / Russians purchasing (whether for trade or collecting) Mongolian items.My opinions are based on my observations over the past couple of years... It seems that when Soviet awards were inexpensive enough, there was a tiny group of collectors that collected Mongolian awards. All of a sudden, prices on Soviet awards went through the roof and the following in the Mongolian (and Eastern European/Warsaw Pact awards in general) awards world skyrocketed accordingly. Many "new" collectors of Soviet awards that were just getting in as prices were going up simply transitioned over to Mongolian awards as it was something interesting and affordable - some of these people have become the "mainstays" of the Mongolian award collecting world. One thing to ponder though would be the status of Mongolian award collecting had Soviet award prices maintained what they were, two or three years ago? Would it have stayed the small collecting community that it had traditionally been? My guess is that it would have.Please don't think for a minute that I'm in anyway bad mouthing the Mongolian award collecting community. I'm just stating my opinions as I see it. I think that there are very definitely quite a few interesting Mongolian awards, but they don't really appeal to me personally as they aren't researchable and rare is the "group" that comes out of Mongolia. As far as the Russians that are beginning to collect Mongolian awards... I think the same phenomenon is happening over there. Although a tiny percentage of Russians have gotten very wealthy and can afford the $14,000 USD to buy a Suvorov 2nd, most "average" Russians and Ukrainians are worse off than their western counterparts bringing in $10,700 and $6800 per capita respectively in annual wages (source: CIA Factbook). Thus, for them collecting Mongolian awards is also a matter of financial consideration... it's possible to assemble a nice Mongolian award collection (most of the awards having been made in the USSR anyway) for a fraction of the cost of Soviet decorations.I still haven't figured out Chinese collectors yet, simply because I just don't know enough of them to make an educated opinion - though in my opinion many of them seem to follow whatever the popular collecting trend is at the time... and have the money to back up their interests wholly.Do I think that the rise in Mongolian award prices is investment or interest driven? I think there's a bit of both. More people are interested in the awards, and thus the prices are going up... the law of supply and demand. At the same time, you have folks like GlennC who:This is small part of my collection. I am buying as many as I can afford. Prices are going up and will continue to rise.Which may not be a bad idea... had I done that back when I could buy Kutuzov 3rds for $700 a pop, I should have bought a couple dozen of them! Of course, that would have been buying for investment rather than interest as I personally think that the Kutuzov is a rather ugly award... Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents in the thread. Enjoy! Dave
Bob Posted January 22, 2006 Author Posted January 22, 2006 http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=7985Russian collectors community doesn't appear to be much smaller or 'poorer' then western though if you consider a site like the one above.
Bob Posted January 22, 2006 Author Posted January 22, 2006 By the way, should it all just be speculation and that the market will tank in a year or so... if anybody then wants to sell me their Suche Bators, I'll gladly buy them for 200 Euro:)
Vatjan Posted January 22, 2006 Posted January 22, 2006 Either way, it's a good moment to have a nice stock of Mongolian items here at home in my shoe box:)As someone who has started out collecting Mongolian orders about 4 years ago, after having fallen in love with the country during a 1 month trip (from which I did not bring home any awards, mind you, still kicking myself for that) I would have to say, 18 months ago was a good time stock up on Mongolian awards. They have already doubled in price since. I paid my ORCB's less than 150 US a piece, I got my SB for 600 US.I don't have any of the older orders though, because I did not have 600 US to buy a Red banner of Military Valour, or 2500 US to buy a Military valour then. I'll never be able to afford them now.Prices might rise even more, I do agree, but the golden age is already long gone. Jan
Ed_Haynes Posted January 22, 2006 Posted January 22, 2006 Deja vu all over again?I was glancing through some olf issues of the JOMSA today, and ran across a piece by Tom Likfa in the April 1997 issue. Likfa had done a number of really important, pre-McDaniel-Schmitt, pieces on Soviet awards in the JOMSA. Likfa is giving an interesting "where do things stand now in 1997" overview of Soviet awards collecting.He points out how much prices have gone down from the earliest days (pre-1991), but how much they are climbing for their immediate post-1991 lows. He attributes some of this to more people collecting, some of this to pressure from collectors in Russia, and some of this to the availability of reference sources (Herfurt and Kutsenko's books, but with McD-S on the near horizon). He also points out the research possibilities which were quite new at that time.He bemoans the fact that ca. 1994 you could get a Suvarov 2nd class for $1600, but that "now" (1997) it might cost $2500 or more. (I note one right now with a dealer in New Jersey for $14,800!) He predicts that prices will continue to climb.Right . . .
NavyFCO Posted January 22, 2006 Posted January 22, 2006 Deja vu all over again?He bemoans the fact that ca. 1994 you could get a Suvarov 2nd class for $1600, but that "now" (1997) it might cost $2500 or more. (I note one right now with a dealer in New Jersey for $14,800!) He predicts that prices will continue to climb.Right . . . Now, what was interesting was that two years later, the prices bottomed out... the 1999-2000 prices were the all-time low of Soviet collecting... and then they skyrocketed with a BANG. Sometimes I can't figure out how the whole pricing thing works! Dave
Guest Rick Research Posted January 22, 2006 Posted January 22, 2006 Pricing is VERY simple for me:I buy what I like, if I can afford it. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it. NEVER investment buying (I do not have the EXTRA money to buy things I do NOT want and do NOT "need" that do NOT interest me), so like spilt milk, I never cry (much, anyway) about what is NOT in my collection. What I have I enjoy. What I don't... c'est la vie. It's very soothing and restful to be satisfied with what CAN come to live at my house for what I can afford, without the stress and disappointment and rage of not having one of everything before it is too late. I look at it this way:I turned down beautiful Mongolian orders 10 years ago when they averaged $100 because Soviet Orders of the Red Banner were averaging $30, and came with Orders Books and paperwork I could read. I'm not collecting and never have collected anything just because Prices Are Going Up. No regrets.I'm not and never have bought for resale. I enjoy the simple pelasure of owning what I own and not fretting over future re-salability, profit, or loss. EVERY item I am able to add to my collection is a GAIN. The "stuff" does, after all, continue to expand to fill all available space, regardless of "trends in the market!"
Bob Posted January 22, 2006 Author Posted January 22, 2006 Why I think prices will continue to rise is really due to such a small supply (I know, everything is supply and demand...). Take a look at the Suche Bator... my guess is most current Mongolia collectors - if they have one or more SBs - will probably never part from them i.e. these items will be off the market for good... for ever. I certainly wouldn't part with mine just because I could get another 200 or even 2000 USD for it. And then... what is left is almost none really in the open market. Just look at the well known dealers websites... not that many SB's to see... on one site one item has SOLD, the other HOLD... I only know right now of one other site which has one for sale.
Ed_Haynes Posted January 22, 2006 Posted January 22, 2006 No, Rick is, as always, right: not a matter of resale, but a matter of being able to get a few lovelies which they are still out there. If I do no house them, someone else does, just so long as they go to a loving home. If I was into investment, I'd be a different person.I just find the theater of the explodoing Mongol market to be of much sociological interest. See what a book can do!!
Bob Posted January 23, 2006 Author Posted January 23, 2006 Is it just me, or is the uniformity of supply rather... well, uniform:)Take a look at what Glenn has... all the usual stuff which you'd be able to see on eBay or could relatively easily obtain through other channels. Now, look at the list of all Mongolian orders / medals... there are quite some on there that you never or hardly ever see on eBay despite the fact that - purely based on numbers produced - you'd just as easily expect to see them. Example: I've been offered 3 medals "glory of the virgin lands" on seperate occasions. I bought one of them. Never seen one on eBay. Supposedly there are 3000-4000 made.Now, I'm dying to get my hands on a 1970's onwards Order of Red Combat Banner (5000+) but can't find it. Similarly, the later Order for Meritorious Service in Battle is very uncommon. Etc.Have lots of these items just 'disappeared' over time? Or is there indeed this large influx of stuff from the state reserves... but then why only THIS uniform stuff?Compare it also for instance with the Title of Merit (the 3 later ones) - according to "the list" only <1000 issued of the numbered ones... yet I've purchased them quite easily (only now, with the chinggisron phenomenon, has the price for this one exploded).I just don't get it!
Ed_Haynes Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Bob is right . . . . . . Mongolia conceals many mysteries . . . . . . medals aside, it'll be interesting to disentangle. Ed
GlennC Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Take a look at what Glenn has... all the usual stuff which you'd be able to see on eBay or could relatively easily obtain through other channels.The usual stuff 3 Sukhe Bator orders,Hero of Labor,Order of the Red Banner of Military Valor same 4th awardPolar Star 1st type A31A40.3A6.12 of A32.1A265 of A23.24 of A23.3A23.42 E 01F 02, F 032- B 01, 5- B 02, 3- B 04A61.3And only then go usual stuff
Guest Rick Research Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 How are you guys who are heavily into Mongolian dealing with the seemingly insurmountable LANGUAGE problem?Is it by simply totally ignoring paperwork entirely?I always felt that was the major impediment that held Japanese collecting back for many long decades (and those of you too young to remember BEFORE Top Dollar Prices won't believe this, but there were long, long decades when Japanese items could not be GIVEN away, interest was so low!) was precisely the fact that it could not be readily READ by collectors.Soviet did not present that problem for me, since I had Russian in school (from the Us Or Them days) and CAN read it. Snarfled many a juicy prize in the Early Days 10 years back BECAUSE I could read what things said. (Same with being a native reader of German Sutterlin script) but as my Evil Twin has posted several sets of documents which cannot even be identified for lack of translation...is THAT going to be the weak/strong point, the Great Divide between Them As Can and Them As Can't READ Mongolian in either script?Because I remember early days of Soviet, when sellers were throwing away paperwork because cash customers who couldn't read anything weren't interested. NOW, of course, we only WANT documented groups, not loose anonymous items. So is that a future that will Never Be for Mongolian collecting, doomed to a retail extinction of documentation disinterest?
Stogieman Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 I don't know if they can be read or not.... but medals/badges with documents are bringing very strong $$ on eBay. The odd thing is.... that I have watched obviously mismatched medals/documents (RE: different number on each piece) still bring (IMO) large $$.So far, I have bid on exactly 2 Security badges from Mongolian State Security. Both with badges and both at what I would consider very strong prices........... outbid on both. No joy in Mudville.
Vatjan Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Example: I've been offered 3 medals "glory of the virgin lands" on seperate occasions. I bought one of them. Never seen one on eBay. Supposedly there are 3000-4000 made.I must say I have seen several, at least 20, on ebay over the last 2-3 yearsNow, I'm dying to get my hands on a 1970's onwards Order of Red Combat Banner (5000+) but can't find it. Similarly, the later Order for Meritorious Service in Battle is very uncommon. Etc.I think that they are really not that uncommon, I'm sure you'll be able to find them within the next couple of months.Have lots of these items just 'disappeared' over time? Or is there indeed this large influx of stuff from the state reserves... but then why only THIS uniform stuff?There has indeed been a sale from the state reserves, which means that what you call uniform stuff, ORCB 1's 2's 3's and 4's is fairly easily available at the moment, it will not be so in a few months. Then the uniform stuff will again be Polar stars and 1970's ORCB and OMM and ORBL's, as it was up untill about 6 months ago.Compare it also for instance with the Title of Merit (the 3 later ones) - according to "the list" only <1000 issued of the numbered ones... yet I've purchased them quite easily (only now, with the chinggisron phenomenon, has the price for this one exploded).I just don't get it! Keep in mind this is a late award, issued since the 1970's, which means less medals will be lost on the vast steppes of Mongolia, then let's say for a 1950's award.Just my 2 centsJan
Bob Posted January 23, 2006 Author Posted January 23, 2006 The usual stuff 3 Sukhe Bator orders,Hero of Labor,Order of the Red Banner of Military Valor same 4th awardPolar Star 1st type A31A40.3A6.12 of A32.1A265 of A23.24 of A23.3A23.42 E 01F 02, F 032- B 01, 5- B 02, 3- B 04A61.3And only then go usual stuff I guess I missed a few while squinting to look at the picture of your collection:)
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