Nooooooooo .......... !

[Robin Lumsden]

These ba$tard, ba$tard, ba$tard politicians ......................

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/05/army-cuts-threaten-death-glory-badge?newsfeed=true

[Robin Lumsden]

And the ba$tard, ba$tard, ba$tard bankers who started all of this. :violent:

[Hugh]

Interesting that they don't even bother to name the regiment with which the badge originated - 17th Lancers.

Hugh

[Brett Hendey]

I think that politicians in Britain (and elsewhere) are like bankers, living in their our dreamworld and out of touch with the people they are meant to serve. If they really cared, they would get rid of the useless bureaucrats and thereby save enough money to maintain the status quo in the military. Perhaps even some past glories could be restored. However, how do you get useless bureaucrats (& politicians, bankers etc) to get rid of themselves?

Brett

[Kev in Deva]

We feel your pain Robin,

currently there is a big Irish Defence Force establishment and military Barrack closures programe running rampant in Ireland as well.

Sad days for all.

Kevin in Deva.

[Ian Shepherd]

Two other famous regiment's that are to go are the Lancashire Fusiliers (6 VC's before breakfast) and the Green Howards. Politician's have no regard for History and traditions. Ian

[Robin Lumsden]

Ian.

How true.

All they are interested in is self-aggrandisement (a lost cause for 99.99% of them) and foreign aid.

Bring back the good old Victorian values. :)

[Chris Boonzaier]

What I always wonder is... if they want to save money and make smaller ... why not just turn the regts into battalions... or even companies... and create a new numered parent regt...

i.e.

1st Infantry Regt

1 Coy - Green howards

2 Coy - Lancashire Fusiliers

Then although waaaay smaller, the tradition would live on....

[Brett Hendey]

I think Chris has an excellent suggestion, but I am sure that the politicians and the parasites that support them will find a cost factor (e.g. cost of badges) to deny implementing it.

Robin's comment on foreign aid is very relevant in this matter. Recently, I read comparisons of foreign aid made over the past decades. For example, Germany and Japan were in a sorry state at the end of WWII but, with the help of foreign aid that did not continue indefinitely, they were soon up and running. Look at them now. Other examples cited where limited and temporary foreign aid was successful were Vietnam and Malaysia. Then, after the success stories came Africa, a continent that has been a bottomless pit for foreign aid since foreign aid was invented. Instead of needing less and less help, it needs more every year. The intended recipients often see no benefit at all, since the money is soaked up by bureaucrats and politicians. Also, there is little or no gratitude on the part of the recipients, real or intended, only requests for more. It is all so amazingly stupid that one has to wonder about the mental health of people involved in providing foreign aid.

Brett

[Chris Boonzaier]

All they are interested in is self-aggrandisement (a lost cause for 99.99% of them) and foreign aid.

Realistically though... countries dont really need armies in the size they did when all those regiments were created.

[Odulf]

Obviously, this is another proof of politicians unaware of their Nation's military history. In accordance with the suggestion of Chris, the so called "Cardwell Reforms" of the 1870s springs to mind, but perhaps the cost (purse reigns over history) will be a problem (what's new). Also, Armies (and Navies as well as Air Forces) are a tool of politics, and to keep traditions in a world of change for the sake of traditions is no option. Old soldiers never die, but their memory is bound to fade away, unless for the old-comrades societies, historical interested, and collectors.

Collectors and military historians are the custodians of history, not politicians!

[Robin Lumsden]

What I always wonder is... if they want to save money and make smaller ... why not just turn the regts into battalions... or even companies... and create a new numered parent regt...

Then although waaaay smaller, the tradition would live on....

Chris.

They did that very thing here a few years ago.

My local outfit, The Black Watch was once a very proud regiment ............... it's now a weak battalion.

It narrowly escaped total annihilation last week.

The Argyll & Sutherlands did not escape virtual destruction. They have been downgraded to a 'ceremonial company', whatever the hell that is.

A couple of days ago, the politicians here had to call on the army to supply 3,500 troops at short notice for 'security duties' at the Olympics, as their private security firm had let them down.

Funny how they can cut back on the army budget big time .............. but still expect the forces to bail them out when the private contractors let them down.

If I have been the head honcho army-wise, I'd have told Theresa May and Co. to get stuffed! They can man the Olympic turnstiles themselves. :)

[hucks216]

I think that the heads of the 3 services are just as much to blame as the politicians. The British Armed Forces are by far and away too top heavy in terms of the numbers of senior officers and yet to save money the military powers that be never suggest cutting the numbers of Admirals, Generals & Air Marschals to a more relaistic level for what the Britsh Armed Forces have become. They would rather see the numers of front line staff, ships and regiments cut before they even contemplate suggesting the unthinkable (to them.) I believe that the Government even suggested that a way to save some of the titles was to downsize from Regiment to Battalion (or reduce the manning levels of battalions) but the head of the Army refused. I don't know the numbers money wise but I think you could slash those senior officers by 50% and make a huge saving without affecting the running of the Armed Forces, by using senior Captains/Colonels etc to take up those roles.

Edited July 14, 2012 by hucks216

[Ian Shepherd]

Cris, Robin is right. The Lancs Fusiliers are now officially the 2nd battalion of the Fusilier regiment. Ian

[Dave Alexander]

The Gaurdian article is a little vague, the QRL haven't been equipped with Challengers in years. The QRL are to be amalgamated with the 9/12L and will probably retain the motto as they did when the 17/21L and 16/5 came together even though the latter Regt was senior.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think this is a natural progression, hard as it seems...

Europe does not need the vast standing armies it did 100 years ago. No nation could afford it.

Training a soldier is no longer teaching him to march and shoot a rifle... it has become expensive. And get this... they are no longer willing to serve for beer money.. ;-)

And there are no national servicemen to fill up the ranks... and Germany is not going to invade anyway...

The money would be better spent on proping up the police.

In the UK it is especially painful because the names of the regiments are well known, as are the badges....

In countries where regiments were just numbered (France, Germany) you can kill a regt and it will pass more or less unnoticed...

The famous 13e DBLE was murdered last year.... A unit that was at Narvik, Bir Hakiem etc. etc... :-(

As stated above, for me the most logical solution would have been regiments to battalions if the goal was to keep tradition alive.

The same side to the same coin... can the UK afford to keep the Gurkhas? Another fantastic tradition... but a Gurkha regt is a UK based Regt on the dole...

.. and at some stage... the French might think the foreign legion takes the jobs of 8000 locals... :-(

[jf42]

I believe that the Government even suggested that a way to save some of the titles was to downsize from Regiment to Battalion (or reduce the manning levels of battalions)

In fact that is precisely what happened with the Royal Regiment of Scotland, Royal Welsh, Mercians and Yorkshire Regt, not to mention the clunkily named Rifles. In 2006, those 'super regiments' each became the repository for the traditions of dozens of former Childers regiments, many of them the result of earlier amalgamations or super regiments created in the 50s' and 60's (or later), all reduced to battalions of the new regiments.

Unfortunately, the colonels could not argue with falling recruiting figures.

[dmiller8]

I'm an American, watching this topic, but I also lament the loss of the historical associations between many famous regiments and the need for reductions in manpower commensurate with the decreasing requirement for military security and intervention. I understand a great deal of pride is expressed both in regimental identity as well as hundreds of years of unbroken service. In the US, units that are no longer needed usually disappear into the museums, but on occasion, are resurrected in another way. The State of Massachusetts revived the 54th Volunteer Infantry as a ceremonial unit of the state National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/54th_Regiment_Massachusetts_Volunteer_Infantry) to carry on the traditions of the original regiment that was composed of freed slaves and Black volunteers. The 369th Infantry of WW1 returned to service as the 369th Sustainment Brigade(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/369th_Sustainment_Brigade_(United_States)), bearing the lineage and honors of the original Harlem Hell-fighters. The 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing claimed its descent from the original 332nd Fighter Wing, staffed by Tuskegee Airmen. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/332d_Air_Expeditionary_Wing) They furled their colors on 8 May this year, but there is nothing to prevent reactivation sometime in the future.

One seemly stupid question. Why don't the more venerable British regiments list battle honors for the American Revolution or the War of 1812? It would make one think the British army was a peace between the end of the French and Indian Wars and the start of the Napoleonic Wars.

[Craig]

To the British and the Army the War of Independence was a civil war and you wouldn't have a battle honour for fighting your own kin......that and we lost!

Craig

[peter monahan]

Robin wrote "Bring back the good old Victorian values."

I assume you mean multi-battalion regiments, each with local connections and a proud history, asopposed to child prostitution and workhouses!

Sadly, in this day and age, its all about 'efficiency' [read 'cutting costs'] and the immeasureables like tradition, elan, morale and so on go straight into the dust bin. At least we at the GMIC can argue we're doing our humble bit to preserve at least the knowledge of the old ways. God bless the King Emporer!

[Robin Lumsden]

I assume you mean multi-battalion regiments, each with local connections and a proud history, as opposed to child prostitution and workhouses!

You assume wrong! 'The sun never sets ................. ' and all that!

:cheeky:

[tynesideirish]

Glad the Household division and the Parachute Regiment were left with all their battalions... After all you never know when you'll need a parade.