EK 1914 flat vs. vaulted

[Eric Stahlhut]

here are two 1914 ek1s from the same maker. one is flat, and the other is vaulted. i've wondered if the buyers/awardees were able to choose which type they received...i don't think i've ever seen the choices listed in a period catalog. perhaps it was up to the discretion of the manufacturer? or a random disbursement? i dunno

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-4736-0-10076800-1342977897.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-4736-0-52070500-1342977911.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-4736-0-59310900-1342977956.jpg

[saschaw]

I'm not having a doubt only flat crosses were awarded.

Vaulted crosses were very popular and were bought, but probably some makers offered flat crosses, too.

The two crosses shown are probably later bought ones.

[Eric Stahlhut]

i agree,

i guess my question is from a merchandising perspective: did the customer have a choice at the point of purchase to buy the same cross in either form, or did the cross start out as flat, with the vaulted version appearing later as a feature/design upgrade in order to make the model more appealing and competitive in the retail market?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here is what I wonder....

I would guess that vaulted cost a little bit more than flat?

Maybe that was the reason that state bought were flat?

I would bet that there are few higher ranks who did not have vaulted ones... What did Kaiser W wear?

If the kaiser wore vaulted... but awarded flat... then I am guessing that it was simply because they cost less?

[Clive Vincent]

Hello, I'm a long time collector of Iron Crosses of all confllicts and glad to make your aquaintance here. Getting my head around the forum world so bear with me!

I'm only going on what I'd always assumed, but my thoughts are that awarded crosses were always flat due to perhaps cost of production and uniformity of awards. I'd never considered award pieces being vaulted but there's really no reason why that should be exclusively the case to my knowledge.

There's nothing I've ever found that confirms this but it would seem to make sense to me.

As to private purchase pieces it seems plausible that you would have a choice of pieces of varying value, whether higher silver content, vaulted or quality of finish.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Hope to enjoy your company here and add something to the forum in my limited way.

Cheers,

Clive.

[Eric Stahlhut]

I would bet that there are few higher ranks who did not have vaulted ones... What did Kaiser W wear?

If the kaiser wore vaulted... but awarded flat... then I am guessing that it was simply because they cost less?

perhaps this may be why there are almost no vaulted 1939 ek1s in existence??? a national socialist 'stick-to-the rules' and do away with the 'privileged few' kinda thing? it certainly was easier for the lower ranks to be awarded the first class during ww2, anyways..

p.s. welcome to the forum, clive!

Edited August 2, 2012 by Eric Stahlhut

[dond]

There were vaulted ones in 1939 as well based upon the old frames. But when Hitler decided the cross need to be larger he also mandated that it be flat.

[Eric Stahlhut]

yes, bigger and flat, plus the makers had to obtain a license in order to make them. not everyone could manufacture them. much stricter guidelines--all controlled by the government

[Clive Vincent]

Thanks for the welcome Eric. I know old Grofaz stuck his oar in and regulated the size (had to be bigger obviously) and stopped the production of vaulted pieces during the TR period. I've never seen anything suggesting that there was any specific decree that WW1 issued pieces had to be flat though. Has anyone else I wonder? As I say I'd always just assumed rank and file got flat basic pieces due to cost etc.

I imagine that a higher rank may well have been given a nice silver cross on award due to it being a bit of an event etc. Just my thoughts though.

Don, I've never owned a '39 genuinely vaulted piece but I would love to. I'm more an imperial man myself but for the sake of completeness I do have '39 crosses.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Clive Vincent

[saschaw]

I've never seen anything suggesting that there was any specific decree that WW1 issued pieces had to be flat though. Has anyone else I wonder?

In Prussia, there was a an agency that was responsible for ordering the state awards, storing them, sending them to the reciepients, and those that had to be returned, had to be sent back there.

This was the so called Generalordenskommission ("GOK"). They had examples ("Proben") of the awards, examples that were approved by the king. Any award delievered to them, had to be like this examples. We call this "Probemäßigkeit", the official awarded Prussian awards had to be "probemäßig" - alike the example approved by the king. But not to get me wrong, this was not about a 10th of a milimeter, and it was not about the lengh of a needle or the position of the maker's mark. But a Iron Cross had to have an black, iron core and a silver frame, and the first classes had to be flat, and to be worn on a needle. Anything else - at least as long as the GOK existed - was not officially awarded, but privately purchased: vaulted crosses, screwback crosses, crosses with non-iron core and so on...

As I say I'd always just assumed rank and file got flat basic pieces due to cost etc.

The awarded crosses in high officers', even generals' and royal's groups are flat. And, by the way, most (or, in my opinion: all) flat award-type crosses from WW1-era are silver, while the vaulted crosses exist in almost any metal we can imagine.

Hope this brought some clarity! I'm having to hard job to proove anything I write as much is not even published...

Edited August 3, 2012 by saschaw

[gregM]

Welcome aboard Clive,

Like you I collect mainly Imperial but have a few representative 1939s.

Sascha-- Nicely done. I had not seen that explained that well before.

[Clive Vincent]

Sascha, thankyou very much for taking the time to explain that to me. Very interesting and has answered a lot of my questions. Much appreciated.

Thanks for the welcome Greg!

Clive.

[saschaw]

Gladly! But there's one thing to add: we're not having real evidence for all of this, but I'm still quite sure it's right what I wrote.... ;o)

[baltic tom]

Greetings All, First, outstanding Forum. In my modest collection silver framed EK1s usually mrked K.O. are all flat. The ability to read & see all these EKs is adding so much to my understanding & enjoyment my collecting. Tom

[gregM]

Welcome Tom

[marrauder]

This one is interesting, at least for me: it is blackened, as early crosses, but vaulted, as postwar purchases. Cross is marked only 938, but frame looks to be S-W. It doesn´t look it was hand vaulted.

[marrauder]

The back

[marrauder]

938

[marrauder]

I have also EK2 of same kind, blackened and marked (S-W). Not vaulted, of course :)

[saschaw]

but vaulted, as postwar purchases.

Whoever claims vaulted crosses are postwar, is totally not right.

This is a nice, early cross - and probably yet from WW1 days.

[marrauder]

This is a nice, early cross - and probably yet from WW1 days.

Good to hear that. Cheers.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Whoever claims vaulted crosses are postwar, is totally not right.

This is a nice, early cross - and probably yet from WW1 days.

Indeed... many, many vaulted crosses in WW1 pics...

Here is my question though...

We collectors often say, the wearers usually kept their award piece in honor (reason they bought a 2nd RK etc)... but we see numerous groups with just a vaulted cross... would this mean they lost the flatback?

[dond]

Probably sent it home for safe keeping. I have KO marked cross in case and carton that is mint.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Probably sent it home for safe keeping. I have KO marked cross in case and carton that is mint.

Indeed... but that would likely mean, when it came to selling grandfathers group, his award flatback would probably be there.. more likely than his domed wearing one....

[Motorhead]

Well-what if the awarded piece sticked at the uniform every day-and looked like that? If you go to a photograph to get some pics in your best uniform-wouldn't you try to get the best one for that picture?Just a guess...

Micha