Prussia Interesting Bar but what do you think is missing?

[padro]

I recently acquired this bar as I thought it was an interesting mix of medals. I initially thought with Landwehr XX long service missing medals were probably RAO4 without swords, KO4 without swords and princely Hohenzollern.

However when I got the bar, and hopefully you can see from the photos, there is a dent in the Hohenzollern ribbon exactly where the mount bar of a Royal Hohenzollern would be. So could this be a Royal Hohenzollern without swords? Surely though it should be after the EK2?

What do you guys with more experience than me think?

Any thoughts on rank and ID possibilities? Thanking you all in advance and hope you like it.

[Claudius]

Hello Padro;

It looks like who ever looted the bar, really knew what they were doing. They took the three most valuable awards in the middle and knew not to bother with the enameled Austrian one on the end.

Nevertheless, I believe your thinking is correct. After the EK2, it is;

RAO w/o swords,

KO w/o swords,

then here you are wondering if it was the Hohenzollern Order, but if it was it should be right after the EK2, right?

I think is the Hohenzollern order, but a lower class, perhaps the 3rd class in silver. That might explain its position on the bar. I wonder what the regulations say on this point.

I also think that this gentleman was a real, dyed-in-the-wool Prussian. He put all his Prussian awards first before the "foreign" awards of Brunswick (war ribbon) and peacetime(?) Austria.

Nice bar! I hope you can restore the medals and return it to its original appearance.

[saschaw]

Precendece would be right for a Principal Hohenzollern house order or for an "Inhaberkreuz" of the Royal one. Its "Ritterkreuz" should indeed be in front of RAO and KO...

Unusual combination... sure there was a royal one, from the strange mount traces? I cannot see them in the pictures, but you're having it in hands.

[dedehansen]

Precendece would be right for a Principal Hohenzollern house order or for an "Inhaberkreuz" of the Royal one. Its "Ritterkreuz" should indeed be in front of RAO and KO...

Unusual combination... sure there was a royal one, from the strange mount traces? I cannot see them in the pictures, but you're having it in hands.

Hello Sascha,

but if it is an fürstliches Ritterkreuz von Hohenzollern it´s on the right place.

Regards

Andreas

[saschaw]

Right, Andreas, that's what I wrote - but padro claims it has mounting traces of the Royal one.

[padro]

Thanks for your comment guys when I first saw this bar I thought exactly as you do namely;

EK2,

Red Eagle without swords

Crown Order without swords

Princely Hoh

but with it in hand I can see where the Hohenzollern medal was attached and at that point is an impression in the ribbon that matches the mounting bar of the Royal medal. As you know the Princely one mounts from a ring, that couldn't possibly make this mark.

Anyway after Claudius asked what the regulations said I tried a Google, and hey presto I managed to find the Prussian precedence regulations for Feb 1915 they are as follows;

1 EK2 1870 or 1914

2 Royal HOH with swords

3 RAO3 or 4 with swords

4 KO3 or 4 with swords

5 Gold Military Merit Cross

6 Military Decoration 1st Class

7 Military Decoration 2nd Class

8 Russian Order of St George 4th Class

9 Austro-Hungarian Maria Theresa Order

10 Prussian Life Saving Medal

11 Prussian War Effort Cross ( Created 5/12/16)

12 Royal Hohenzollern, RAO, KO on peacetime ribbon

13 Red Cross second Class Medal

14 Orders of non Prussian States subordinate to Prussia ( If wearing that states cockade)

15 Merit Cross in Gold with or without crown

16 Merit Cross in Silver with or without crown

17 Cross of the General Decoration

18 General Decoration

19 XXV Service Cross

20 Princely HOH House Order 2 or 3 class ( war or peace ribbon)

21 Red Cross third class Medal

22 1864 Duppel Cross

23 1864 Alsen Cross

24 Long Service Awards XX, XV,or XII

25 RAO Medal

26 KO Medal

27 Reichs Kriegsverdienst Medal ( granted only to native troops in the colonies)

28 Long Service Awards IX or reserve Landwehr Medal

29 1870-71 Medal

30 1866 War Cross

31 1864 War Medal

32 Colonial Medal

33 1904-06 Southwest Africa Medal

34 1900-01 China Medal

35 1848-49 Princely HOH Campaign Medal

36 1898 Jerusalem Cross

37 Olberg Cross

38 1861 Coronation Medal

39 1897 Centenary Medal

40 Electoral Hesse Jubilee Medals

41 Hannovarian Jubilee Medals

42 Non Prussian Orders (except 8 and 9) as desired

43 Non Prussian Medals as desired

Sorry for the length of this post, but I thought this might be useful to others.

As you can see from these Regs there is another possibility for the missing medals that would fit what I can see on the bar. If the RAO and KO were with swords then a peacetime Royal HOH would indeed sit after them which I must admit I was surprised at.

This raises another question for you Prussian experts if he already had the RAO and KO medals without swords would the next level of wartime award be to add swords or would it be Third Class with swords?

Anyone still awake? Sorry again for the length of this!!

[Claudius]

Thanks for your comment guys when I first saw this bar I thought exactly as you do namely;

EK2,

Red Eagle without swords

Crown Order without swords

Princely Hoh

As you can see from these Regs there is another possibility for the missing medals that would fit what I can see on the bar. If the RAO and KO were with swords then a peacetime Royal HOH would indeed sit after them which I must admit I was surprised at.

If I understand, you are suggesting that the RAO and KO are with swords, because then a peacetime Royal Hoh would follow in the #4 position. While you have a sound reason to make this assertion, I have to respectfully disagree that the RAO and KO are with swords.

1) This gentleman doesn't have an 1870-71 war medal, or China, or Africa. There just isn't any pre-wwi "wartime" service that could have earn "swords". However he was in military service since 1897 (Centennial Medal) and could earn all of these peacetime awards as an officier during the peacetime.

2) If this gentleman was a stickler for precedence by wartime awards, followed by peacetime awards followed by LS, followed by German decorations, followed by non-German awards, then I would think he would have moved the Brunswick 2K cross on war ribbon up two positions.

I think this gentleman was making his sentiments known; EK2, RAO and KO are all PRUSSIAN awards. The Hohenzollern is not his beloved Prussia and he puts it in #4 position. He might have even liked to put it behind his LS and Centennial medal but that would have been too irregular for his medal tailor to allow.

In addressing the observation that Hoh has mounting traces for the Royal Hoh; I also noticed that all of the medals (the five that are still there) have been tied tightly downed at the öse. The other three were likely too. I would expect the top arm of the Royal Hoh to impress itself into the mounting. What is mysterious to me is how straight across (although at an angle) the impression in the ribbon is. Like an EK2 cross's arm. As you all know, the Royal Hoh has more of a rounded arm. Is there any other award that could fit here and explain the impression?

I sure hope this gentleman can be identified. The identity will clearly settle the matter.

[saschaw]

As you can see from these Regs there is another possibility for the missing medals that would fit what I can see on the bar. If the RAO and KO were with swords then a peacetime Royal HOH would indeed sit after them which I must admit I was surprised at.

This possibility isn't one, for the exact reason a Prussian (as he obviously is) would wear any Prussian order with swords on a black/white or white/black war ribbon (same as for Iron Crosses), and not on statutory ribbons.

This leaves peace time awards only... assuming the precendece is right, it should be RAO 4th class, KO 4th class and the Inhaberkreuz of the Royal HOH. Everything else would be impossible - or inaccurate. As before, all based on the fact the HOH ribbon shows "royal" mounting traces.

This raises another question for you Prussian experts if he already had the RAO and KO medals without swords would the next level of wartime award be to add swords or would it be Third Class with swords?

The RAO and KO medals are a very different issue. They were not part of the orders, and not even part of Prussia's official award system, rather handed out like candy by the king when visiting e. g. forgein (non-Prussian) courts or to honour other persons, that were not "worthy" for the real orders or decorations. And, they were never ever awarded with swords!

[padro]

Excellent post Saschaw you will have to excuse my ignorance of prussian awards I did not realize that with swords changed the ribbon to EK2 type ribbon.

I presume this rule also applies to the HOH4 (Inhabers Kreuz) so therefore as you say they must all be peace time awards.

So as you say we must be talking about;

RAO4

KO4

HOH4 (Inhabers Kreuz) Not an Officers Award

All without swords.

So he must therefore be a through the ranks Officer with at least 20 calender years in to achieve his LD1,

I know Prussia suspended service awards during WW1 but did they continue awarding after the war?

I can't find anyone with a HOH4 in the 1914 Rangliste so he must have received alot of awards in those last few months and indeed a Commission.

I would love to reconstruct this bar and would appreciate any further help

[redeagleorder]

Whilst 'normal' long service awards were awarded after the war, landwehr ones are all pre-war awards.

Matthew

[padro]

Thanks Matthew thats great information so he got his twenty years in before the war. So this guy must have been born in the early 1870s and been in his forties at the outbreak of war.

Presumably he couldn't have received his LD1 until he was commissioned so he would just have had the Centenary medal an LD2 and his HOH4 (Inhabers Cross) as reward for long service as an NCO, then as he was promoted to Leutnant RAO4, KO4 and LD1.

The other three awards are obviously wartime so he has some association with Brunswick.

Thanks again if only there was a roll for the HOH4, I don't think it was awarded that often.

[Daniel Krause]

Nice bar!

The HOH4 was awarded to NCO´s after about 40-50 years of service, unless they have been in the Schlossgardekompanie or top-score guards guys.

There was a PRINCELY Hohenzollern cross on the bar, no ROYAL.

I would guess a 3rd class with crown.

lots of greetings

Daniel

[padro]

Hi Daniel thanks for your comments, the reason I think it is a Royal HOH4 is because of the marks on the ribbon which have been made by a medal being in place for a long time. I have tried to take some better pictures to show what I mean, and have taken some measurements and compared them with a HOH3 that I have as I know the HOH3 and HOH4 are identical in size and mounting.

This impression on the ribbon is straight and measures 2cm, also this is 4.5cms from the bottom of the LD1 medal. Comparing these measurement against the HOH3 I have they match exactly, the mounting bar is 2cm and if it were mounted on this bar the bottom of the HOH3 would be exactly level with the LD1.

I am sure you are familiar with the mounting methods of the Royal and Princely devices but here are pictures for those who aren't.

HOH4 Princely 3rd with crown

As you can see I don't think the Princely device could make the indentation on the ribbon as it is mounted from a ring and its crown being 3 dimensional has no flat straight part to make the mark.

Whereas the Royal device mounts from a 2cm straight bar which is proud of the crown.

The impression on the ribbon is even more pronounced in hand than the photo makes it look.

Am I making the right assumptions or is there some other explanation that I am ignorant of ?

All your comments are really appreciated.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,

I see your point!

It seems indeed to be a royal one.

In this case it can only be a Hohenzollern knight.

No Landwehr or Reserve Officer had a Hohenzollern Inhaber.

Might it be that the Red Eagle had a Crown? The thread on the ribbn seems to be higher than the one at the Crown Order ribbon.

Lots of greetings

Daniel

[padro]

Hi Daniel thanks for the info. I have taken the bar out and peeled back the RAO ribbon as best I can and I believe your hunch is correct, I think it was with a crown.

The main thread that fixed the ring is sewn in just above the Hohenzollern medal and not only that there is a second piece of thread about 1cm below that, possibly to fix the crown tight to the bar as per the other medals.

I did have my suspicions, hence an earlier post of mine regarding an Oberleutnant Sachse of the 3rd Landwehr Garde Regiment.

According to the 1914 Rangliste he had RAO4mkr, KO3, HOH3, LD2 and I thought I may have cracked it, but I had a reply saying he also had Zahringer 1 and Hilfdienst which put him out of the running.

The search continues!!