Reference Topic How DO group members value their medals properly?

[David B 1812]

This is a very long, detailed post. I will call it PART ONE of a TWO PART POST:

I would consider myself a fairly experienced, knowledgable medal collector, with a collection of over 600 medals, and experience of 33 years in the hobby. I have just this week received my 2013 copy of Medal Year Book. I would like to hear the views and opinions of other members of this "Club" as to exactly HOW they value the medals in their collections - that is apart from the obvious, of looking up a medal in the MYB and seeing that the value is from £30 - £35. Of course, we all know that it is NOT that simple. The MYB valuation is for a bog-standard medal, to a bog-standard individual, in an average everyday unit, and in average to good condition.

Then, of course, there are those amongst you who may wish to argue that the prices quoted in the MYB are in many cases higher than they should be, and that you just WISH that you could get those levels of prices for your medals, IF you sold them. Well to those people, I would say that, no, you will not get those prices for your medals if you sell them to a dealer, who, in turn, wants to make a profit, and will try to sell your medals at MYB levels or more, if he can get more. Secondly, you may get MYB prices or higher if what you are selling is something a potential buyer REALLY wants and needs - he may well pay a premium. Then of course, we come to medals that you have put some WORK into. If they are named, and you have done research on them, got papers for them verified the awards on the medal roll, checked the casualty lists, printed out CWGC death certificates, if the poor fellow was K.I.A. and so on and so forth, you will add value to the medal, or group.

Likewise, if you check the London Gazette for confirmation of gallantry and similar awards, and make copies of the LG references, etc, you will add value. If you do further IN DEPTH research on the individual, you may find that he received his award for a noteworthy engagement - for example, I have in my collection, a South Africa group with a Military Medal, awarded to a man, in a Victoria Cross recommended action, at DELVILLE WOOD. What is more, my man was shot twice, escaped (hence the award) but was captured, and made a P.O.W. Groups like that are gold. Or a WWII group to an uncle of mine who won a British Empire Medal for gallantry, at Cassino, Italy. A very famous battle. More gold. Or another WWI pair I have, with a death plaque to a South African Royal Flying Corps pilot, shot down, over the Somme, becoming a "Bloody April" casualty for April, 1917. You just don't find stuff like this every day. BUT it all starts with an apparently "ordinary" medal, or group. You the DO THE RESEARCH, and, if you can find something good - you can ADD masses of value. Like the WWI East Africa "K.I.A." casualty I have, where his demise is recorded in his regimental history. That, "during the late afternoon, there was a lull in the battle....." My man, with two others sat in a group, and one shared cigarettes with the others. As the THIRD MAN (my casualty) lit his cigarette, "......... he received a mortal wound, from enemy rifle fire...... a fact which was later noted by the others, that he was the third person to light up....''

You just can't make stuff like this up. But lots of diligent research is required. Now IF after you have this kind of documented research, neatly and properly recorded, or even published, then almost certainly you will sell at well ABOVE MYB price levels, especially at AUCTION, where the buyers usually are NOT buying for re-sale, but for themselves and their own collections - therefore they will generally pay higher prices, at auction. BUT let us leave aside the Medal Year Book price arguement for the time being. In other words, we will not argue if these are above, or below what you might consider "fair market value". That is an entriely different arguement. What we are talking about here is:

HOW DO YOU VALUE A MEDAL or MEDAL GROUP, having account for factors like: What are the different medals in the Group? Are they verified? If any medal / medals have bars, or clasps, are they correct? Have you verified them? What if the medal recipient belongs to a 'special' or 'unusual' unit or regiment? What if he holds rank, higher than just a plain private? What if the "he" is in fact a "she" - does that command a premium on the price?. What if your man was killed in action? Wounded in action? Taken as a P.O.W.? What if you have private papers for the man, or a photograph of him, especially one of him in uniform? What if you have a group. like I have, to man who, in WWII was in the Royal Armoured Corps, but, in addition to his '39-'45 Star; Africa Star, Italy Star and France and Germany Star, was awarded an "ATLANTIC" clasp to his France and Germany Star? How is this possible? After all the Atlantic Star was issued (primarily) to men who were in the Royal Navy, and spent at least six months in Atlantic waters. But this man is from the Royal Armoured Corps. Never was in the navy. Can he have an "Atlantic" clasp? To an 'army' man. YES!!! He can ..... because he was R.A.C. crew on Ship's Landing Craft. Both for the Italy landings (1943) and then for the Normandy landings 1944. Ship's Landing Craft crew qualified for the Atlantic Star. This is part of a long service group I have. This fellow also has WWI medals, with an MM, as well as coronation and long service medals. But that is another story. So, we have seen now, how complicated an apparently (and outwardly) simple appearing medal or group of medals can be. And, I repeat, now that you know all this EXTRA information about your medals, is / are the Medal Year Book prices correct / accurate? Probably not.

Here is my PROPOSITION to the Readers of this thread: Over the years, I have tried, as best I can, to answer these questions, with a sort of "formula" to valuation. After correspondence with some leading medal dealers, and after reference to some leading medal publications, WHAT APPEARS BELOW, is as close as I can come to a sort of "formula" for valueing a medal / group of medals. For purposes of arguement, we do not bicker about whether the MYB is correct or not. We simply ACCEPT that the 2013 MYB prices are diligently compiled, from many reputable medal dealers, and many reputable medal auction houses, and we will treat the cataloged prices, NOT AS MONEY, but as a BASE PRICE of 100. Or of 100% Or 100 units of price. So where do we go from here?

END of PART ONE - Continued in PART TWO. (Below.......)

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Edited March 28, 2013 by David B 1812

[David B 1812]

VALUATION of MEDALS or GROUPS OF MEDALS : Part TWO of TWO parts:

MY PROPOSITION TO YOU THEREFORE IS THE FOLLOWING PREMIUMS TO THE "BASE" PRICE:

To The "Base" or MYB Price which we will call "100 Units" we will.......

ADD the FOLLOWING PERCENTAGES:

For a Group 10%

For holding the RANK of a N.C.O. 10 to 20%

For holding a RANK of an OFFICER

Edited March 28, 2013 by David B 1812

[David B 1812]

VALUATION of MEDALS or GROUPS OF MEDALS : Part TWO of TWO parts:

MY PROPOSITION TO YOU THEREFORE IS THE FOLLOWING PREMIUMS TO THE "BASE" PRICE:

To The "Base" or MYB Price which we will call "100 Units" we will.......

ADD the FOLLOWING PERCENTAGES:

For a Group 10%

For holding the RANK of a N.C.O. 10 to 20%

For holding a RANK of an OFFICER 30 to 70%

If the individual was WIA (Wounded in Action) 25%

If the individual was KIA (Killed in Action) 50%

If the individual is/was a FEMALE 50 - 100%

If the medals are still MINT, in the box of issue 100%

If the individual was a member of the Rifle Brigade 10%

If the individual was a member of the Guards 25%

If the individual was in the Royal Horse Artillery 50%

If the individual was a military chaplin / equivalent 50%

If the individual has a multi -clasp medal and he was cavalry 200%

For MULTI-CLASP medals, take the value of the rarest clasp,

and ADD 25% of that value for each additional clasp, to get the

value of the multi-clasp medal.

A leading medal dealer of my acquaintance, offered the following view:

For groups, add 10% of the total value of all the individual medals in

the group. For rank, those of NCOs offer no premium, unless the chap

was a "Colour Sergeant". For officers, he would add 50%. For proven

Killed in Action, he would add 50%.

If you examine the 1983 editon of the "SPINKS Catalogue of British

Orders, Medals and Decorations" you will find that the publication

makes the following recommendations:

Add to the Medal Value:

For NCOs aboive the rank of Corporal, add 20%

For Junior Officers, up to and including Captain, add 40%

For Major and Lt. Colonel, add 70%

For full Colonel and above, add 100%

And so, fellow members of the GMI CLUB, there in TWO PARTS, we have some

food for thought. Some ideas as to valueing MEDALS or MEDAL GROUPS, where

we do not simply accept the Medal Year Book, BASE PRICE (say, as a 100% base),

because our medal or group has some "special" attributes, which make it "better' or

"different" or "more desirable" than just the BASIC medal price which is set out in the

basic Medal Year Book catalogue base price.

So, what system do YOU use? How do YOU value your medals? Do you AGREE

or DISAGREE with the above? What is your experience of such matters? Do you

have other ideas, which we can use to PROPERLY value our medals, using the

variables I have listed earlier? What about a P.O.W. ? The list does not show a

premium for your man being a P.O.W. Is there a premium for being a P.O.W.?

Should there even be a premium for P.O.W.?

I respectfully submit that this is an interesting topic for discussion and debate.

I do not hold out that my above "formula" is necessarily correct, nor even the

"only" formula. It is the product of various people, with whom I have been in

contact, combined. Of course each of you may have DIFFERENT ideas to those

listed here, and we would all be, I think, very interested to hear other views.

Best wishes,

David B 1812

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[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi David,

some great thoughts... but I dont think it is ever possible to have a one size fits all solution. Each collector can work out what he considers to be criteria for "premium prices", but it will always remain subjective because there are many collectors who collect with special interests.

For instance, while I agree with much of your scale above, I put little value on a medal being mint. I would also value infantry over cavalry, especially for WW1.

My major collecting area is WW1 German award certificates... here prices are usually determined by the design on the document, with certain interest groups assuring that documents for certain battles (verdun, hartmannsweilerkopf etc) fetch premium, and certain units fetch a premium.

Here is a fine example (for me)... The DSO group... Officer with Danie Theron, sharpshooter, raider in the Cape, documented shootings in a number of books, etc. etc...

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/3093-for-killing-brits/?hl=cloete#entry27693

For me, the MYB can go suck an egg with valuation... if I for some reason wanted t sell it, I would put EUR15 000 on it... it is for me the ultimate Boer Group, the only Boer Sharpshooter with so much description of his actions... and I would probably not get EUR15 000 for it because other collectors have other priorities... so? What is the value of the group? I contend, as long as it is in my hands, and I am alive and kicking... the Value IS EUR15 000... when I die and my wife decides to ebay it... the value drops to whatever the next 2 collectors decide to bid on it... With unique things like named medals the value is not only set by what someone is willing to pay... but also by the lowest price a seller is willing to accept.... even if noone meets the price...

This is a great can of worms and i see room for lots of interesting discussion :-)

[Mervyn Mitton]

David - not sure who you are , however, I expect we have met ? Firstly, welcome to GMIC - with your obvious knowledge we

will look forward to seeing some of your collection - and indeed - having further serious questions posed to our Membership.

I think that your questions are well thought out - if a little too clinical for everyday business. Dealing firstly with the Medal Year Book.

Used properly it is a guide that indicates prices for the UK market - this in turn ensures that there is a guide, since Britain is

the leading market point with it's auctions of world-wide material. However, at the end of the day - it is a willing buyer, willing

seller agreement that will bring an exchange.

The valuations they give are not infallible - but, rather a starting point when establishing an asking - or, offering price. With

a World recession, medals - particularly the more common ones, have probably decreased in some instances. The main thing

is that a seller should have some idea of the price they are looking for ? You mention dealers - obviously they will expect

to make a profit - there is no point in them remaining in business if they don't and holding large stock is very expensive.

The alternative for selling is auctions - in SA 18% commission + 14% vat - and no guarantee of getting your hoped for price.

The third choice is to sell privately. This is fine if the person selling has knowledge - however, even within Societies the

un-knowledgeable can be taken advantage of - as for the many internet sales rooms, most items seem not to sell - they are

repeated week after week and prices for most things are not high. Most dealers no longer have shops and tend to do their

sales by these internet auctions - some make a living - and some buyers get bargains - but, not my choice. Mervyn

I will be interested to see further comments from our Members. Mervyn

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello David,

Allow me to echo Mervyn's welcome to the forum.

You have obviously put in a lot of time and thought into your post and because it is an important subject I have "pinned" the topic in this section.

This will allow as many members to read your post and perhaps make their comments and suggestions.

Again, welcome to the forum and thank you for your post.

Regards

Brian

[IrishGunner]

I agree with Chris' perspective on this... The value is purely subjective to the owner regardless of any formula or value guidebook. And when one factors in "market forces," clearly, what one paid for an item in the first place (value determined by someone else) plays a part in any re-sale equation. And as Chris states, value is to a large degree what one is willing to accept for the item in a sale transaction after adding in subjective criteria. I may value an item high, but you may value it low - simply because we have different interests. It seems more voodoo than pure math.

Frankly, to play the devil's advocate, any piece has only subjective value until it goes to market. Unless you can get said price, the item is either "priceless" or "worthless" - depending upon your perspective. Anything outside my collecting field simply has no "value" to me...since I'm not willing to pay any price. Sort of like a bloody sock. But hey, to another collector it's worth thousands of dollars because of the subjective factors such as it's history and the owner's attachment to that history.

For insurance purposes, one is at the mercy of random forces it seems... Realized market prices and guide books. Appraisers tend to be less attached to these historical items than are we...

I boil it down simply; it's "value" to me is whatever I paid for the item to obtain it in the first place. Should it go to sale, it's value is whatever I'm willing to accept for it at the time. To sell, I either lower my "value" to the buyer's or get the buyer to raise his "value" to match my price. Simple supply and demand.

Edited March 29, 2013 by IrishGunner

[David B 1812]

Thank you Mervyn and Brian, for your kind welcome to the group. So far, in looking around the various posts, I know at least two members. But obviously there may

be others, as time passes. I have known Brett Hendey for nearly 25 years now, and I also know and have corresponded with "Ed" - very possibly the world's leading

expert on medal matters concerning India and surrounding areas. (Ed through other Internet groups) . Apart from my medal and militaria collections, my main two areas

of work at the moment are two books I am writing. The first is about an Old Boy of my old school, Durban High School. The book will probably go under the title of:

'Maj. Edwin Swales, VC, DFC and other D.H.S. Heroes'. (Been working on it for four years, now). The second book, which I started in 2003, goes under the provisional

title of 'A Dictionary of Military Terms, Definitions and Abbreviations'. It is a mammoth work, and more comprehensive (on the subject) than any other I have ever seen.

It is pretty much complete now, and I really need to find a publisher with decent distribution channels into the world of medal collectors, militaria collectors, military museums

and libraries, medal/militaria shops and dealers, military and history researchers and writers, the genealogy market, and so forth.

To give you an idea of the scope of the "Dictionary" let us compare it with something we know. And that is the 2013 Medal Year Book list of Military Abbreviations, etc as

listed in the MYB from page 515 to page 518. If you do a rough count of the number of abbreviations and/or definitions as are covered by these few pages in the MYB, you

will find that the total number of entries is about 475. Now, my "Dictionary of Military Terms, Definitions and Abbreviations" has approximately 5,150 entries, covering the

A to Z of the subject. It also has 14 pages of very interesting Appendices - eight appendices in all. Total word count so far: 54,850 words. The book covers as many terms, definitions and

abbreviations as I could find, these past ten years from the UK, S.A,. Australia, N.Z., Canada, India, the U.S.A. and some basic cover of German and other European.

It is a huge work, as this description will attest.

Best wishes,

David B 1812

P.S. Here is a tiny sample of what it looks like. This is ONLY from H, Ha, to Haz. Obviously not shown are the next entries, i.e.: Hb, Hba. etc etc...........

H Hussars, or Royal Hussars

HA Heavy Artillery

HA Horse Artillery

HAA Heavy Anti-Aircraft

HAAAR Heavy Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment (of the R.A.)

(as part of the B.A.F. 1939 – 1942)

Habbakuk The British WWII code name for a floating seadrome made of ice

HAC Honourable Artillery Company

HA / LA guns High angle / Low angle guns, for example 4 inch (100mm) guns (often quick firing) fitted as secondary armament on a navy

cruiser for use against either surface or air targets. Other examples are the Bofors 40mm and the Oerlikon 20mm guns.

Halberd A combination spear-battle axe. Having an axe-like cutting blade, a sharp pointed spike and a sharp or hooked beak,

attached to (usually) a long wooden haft.

HALO High Altitude Low Opening parachute jump

Halyard A nautical term for a rope used for raising and lowering a flag or sail

Hammal Formerly a bearer of a palanquin or palke. (Indian) Later used in the Bombay Presidency to denote a personal servant

Hants: & I of W Hampshire and Isle of Wight (on a QSA)

HAR Helicopter, Air Rescue

Hart’s Annual Army List Unofficial army lists of British Officers from 1840 to 1915 showing war services and medal details. Also Indian Army from

1862 onwards

Hats The British operational code name in WWII for the passing of the Fleet reinforcements through the Mediterranean and running of supply convoy to Malta

Hav Havildar (cf.)

Havildar Indian Infantry - an NCO equal to Sergeant

Havildar-Major Indian Infantry - a Regimental Sgt. Major

Hav. CGD Havildar Clerk General Duties (Indian)

Hav./W&W Havildar Watch and Ward (Indian)

Havelock Cloth cap cover that hung on the back to protect the neck

from sunlight (named after Sir Henry Havelock)

Hazar A colloquial term for one thousand Rupees (Indian)

[Pylon1357]

I am primarily a medals collector. I mainly collect to Canadians in the C.E.F. along with any named medals to the Irish Regiment of Canada. I have been actively collecting medals for just over 30 years.

I must admit I do like your formula, but would likely never pay that much for a grouping. Up until now I could say the same for a single Gallantry medal, however, I am working on paying off a DCM that I simply had to have for a partial re-unite.

My thoughts on my collection are pretty simple, I have what I have and see no plans for disposing of my collection therefore value is a moot point for me. As to new additions, simply put, if it is cheap and it appeals to me, I take a run at it.

I purchased one WWI pair to a CEF member, solely because of the answer he gave on his attestation Papers on the question "Are You Married?" his answer yes no (about to be). Based on this reply, the pair appealed to me and it was quite inexpensive as a basic pair.

[paul wood]

As a collector of medal to Indians during the Raj period I would willingly pay MYB prices for virtually everything (I love that phrase medals to Indians are worth less...if only I would have got that 2 clasp Mutiny to the pioneers in DNW, it made £880, probably more than one to a Lieut in an ordinary line regt.).

Prices vary, and its all down to the economics of supply and demand. If demand outstrips supply then prices will generally rise quite rapidly. If a large collection of that material suddenly appears on the market then prices will soften. This is less true with lower priced items such as basic QSAs and WWI trios as thew will always be mopped up. For a collector this can be good for example the Shaw collection (which the 3rd part will be sold in June) has been great for me the sheer amount of material has allowed bargains for me. but don't go down the American coin way medal pricing is not and will never be an exact science.

Paul

[IrishGunner]

but don't go down the American coin way medal pricing is not and will never be an exact science.

Paul

I agree (of course coin grading still is very subjective despite the so-called certifying experts and let's not forget that ANACS et all are businesses - they grade coins for profit). Occasionally, I've seen medals graded as "Extremely Fine" etc (although I prefer this to the hated, despised, and disgusting word "minty"). Grading doesn't seem to have taken hold though - quality of strike etc seems more useful to the phalerist as a means to detect fakes.

[Chris Boonzaier]

IMHO coins and named medals have nothing in comman.

Maybe unnamed awards and items can be "graded" but as soon as there is a definate name on an item, for me the condition takes 5th place.

[IrishGunner]

IMHO coins and named medals have nothing in comman.

Maybe unnamed awards and items can be "graded" but as soon as there is a definate name on an item, for me the condition takes 5th place.

True, "naming" does put a quality all it's own upon a medal, which can lead to many other things, like famous battle et al. Frankly, for me, condition can even rank low on a common un-named medal; a worn medal "suggests" that a veteran truly owned and possibly wore the medal to veterans' gatherings etc. It's the connection to a real soldier that increases value for my money.

A pristine example of a medal also makes me more cautious because of the "fake risk."

[paul wood]

In my collecting field, conditon is quite often poor. If you see a medal to an Indian in mint conditon, he is generally either a casualty or especially in the case of medals to followers he just never received it.

With British medals quite often one sees minty medals for the simple reason that quite often the recipient received it following demob and he just put them in a drawer, however with Long Service groups the earliest medal to use a technical term is quite knackered.

If you wan't to extort money from me find an Indian quirky rank or unit or even better RIM, RIN, AIF, RIAFor RPAF, then you can do with me as you wish and logical valuation or sanity goes straight out the window, I become a drivelling idiot muttering MUST BUY MEDAL(S).

All the best,

Paul

[QSAMIKE]

This is less true with lower priced items such as basic QSAs and WWI trios as thew will always be mopped up.

Paul

Good Morning Paul.......

I would like to find out what you mean by a basic QSA......

I have been collecting them for nearly 40 years and have seen the fluctuation in prices over the years...... I have copies of all but one or two of the medals year books going back to the very first one and of course the Spinks.....

When you look at a QSA with Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Transvaal which you could say is basic, to one Unit will be worth lets say $100.00 and then you could look at another Unit and will pay $450.00, both medals to a private...... And I will not go into the huge argument over additional charges for Ghost Dated and so called normal reverses......

There are so many ways to value a collection as there are collections....... And comparing prices today vs prices 40 years ago you also have to compare what the value of money was then...... My collection is now worth more, I feel, than what my house cost then.......

But my big question is........

Are We Collecting for the Value of the Medal......

or

Are we collecting the History or Keeping The Memory of the Man Alive.........

Basically, The Man or the Money.....

What is your reason for collecting.....

Mike

[paul wood]

Mike what I describe (probably erroneously) as a bog standard QSA is a date and state issue where the unit was there in reasonable numbers and there is nothing that makes it unusual, certainly if I was collecting medals to Brits I would not spurn a nice example (Now QSAs to Indians different ball game, especially when silver).

The reason I collect medals to Indians is many. My father served at RAF Dum Dum (Calcutta) from 1943-47 and on his return had gone totally native (much to my mother's chagrin). I always remember getting free bus rides as a child as he was able to converse and joke with the Indian bus conductors and as a senior Civil Servant he went out of his way to recruit Indian staff on the principle they were better educated and less lazy then their British counterparts. My father instilled in me a love of Indian culture.

When I started collecting I immediately turned to medals to Indians, much misunderstood and dismissed (and still are in many cases) by collectors of British medals. I realised that the Indians had seen serious action (think of Kut, the Koragh Defile, Burma to name a few). I also realised that with the errors in BBM there were bargains a plenty to be had, I loved the idiosyncracies of British renditions of Indian names (I still chuckle when I see DNW putting note difference in spelling of name- I would put group of 4 note all names spelt Identical- rare). Then all the odd ranks, units so much to collect, too little time.

I collect because I love it and I am probably severely insane, if they provide me with a comfortable dotage then that is a bonus.

Thats my 9 pice worth.

All the best,

Paul

[Strapper]

To my simple perspective on values, is you don't buy the medal, you buy the events that those medals or medal represent, therefore it stands to reason, that every added piece of information, every battle, wound or promotion will add value. We trade in human exploits and experience which are physically represented by awards and medals. Price of a medal...value is only the value of the metal. Add to it priceless provenance and a human face...these medals are as individual as the person who owned them, the value....well what is touching that piece of history worth to you.