Soviet Unresearchable Awards-BLAH!

[Aurelius]

Reck's RB and RS group plus the many I and others have had makes me wonder why awards come back as unresearchable or no research available.

I've heard many things why these are so. The most common is KGB. But there was/is (?) access to the KGB archives still with no hits. Then I hear there are sub archives within the KGB inc. the "traitors to the Soviet Union" archives within the KGB.

It is unfortunate but theft of the actual docs from the archives seems to be ongoing according to good sources. Let's face it, some docs collectors are likely paying big bucks to get the docs behind let's say, a sniper. Much like we would want the actual award. Very sad is that these docs are gone for good. : (

I'd be interested to get your opinions on unresearchables.

[Paul R]

I have had this happen actually more than the time described above. I have a really cool 560K ORB that has come back with negres as well.

So people pay big bucks for the documents without the awards?

It is time to get some volunteers over there to electronically preserve these items.

[Aurelius]

Yo Paul,

Ya, I heard they pay for the docs and not necessarily big bucks. Some have been offered on Ebay in the past.

They have been scanning all the docs for a few years now for Podvignaroda. But if docs have been stolen/sold before that (or even now as the scanning process continues), we are screwed.

I keep hearing "it is KGB, it is KGB" but all non researchables are KGB. We talk here about getting awards for someone well known but what if these are getting lifted also.

In Schmitt's Echoes book there are awards noted for Supreme Soviet (sounds like a Russian pizza) but has anyone of you ever received one? Where have the docs gone if our numbers have been tried in that range and nothing found?

Auke et al?

Edited April 1, 2013 by Aurelius

[Ferdinand]

Paul's "Supreme Soviet" notification simply means that the order or medal was awarded by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet, i.e. by Decree (ukaz). In 1941 and 1942 decorations were generally awarded by formations higher up in the hierarchy, with at the top the Presidium. Most of these are on Podvig.

Record cards form the cornerstone of the research process. I believe that in the case of late postwar awards, many record cards (which in peacetime were filled out at the recipient's local commissariat) were never forwarded to the Central Archive, especially when the commissariat suddenly found itself 'abroad' after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. A second important thing is that the archive section where the record cards are stored seems to be a mess - many cards are misfiled. It is unbelievable how often one of my researchers found a card that another guy couldn't find. Once he sent me a card that obviously only covered a portion of the recipient's career. He later went back and found a second card. And no record card, no award sheet or service record.

Supreme Soviet (sounds like a Russian pizza)

It's the red onions that do it

[Rogi]

I kind of like the unknown factor, but I'd prefer a unknown with a reason "ie in whatever archive" etc it would make it a bit more bearable than waiting like 10 years and figuring out the record is lost for ever :S

[Paul R]

I dont like the unknown factor too much...

[Eric Gaumann]

Has anyone ever gotten an "unresearchable" return and then tried again with someone else and gotten a positive return?

[Aurelius]

Igor, a very good point.

Paul, agreed, that high numbered RB is causing you grief. As such pls send it to me as it will someday be a gem. I guarantee that I will have no grief. I asked around and the word on that RB is it is either classified whether KGB or for cold war actions. NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!

Ericsky Ericovich Ericov, yes, it has happened to me and many others many many times. Could be too much vodka by one searcher or that Marysha hit him too hard with a broom that am. Regardless, it is very nice to get some research in. Pls extend my best to Marshall Catov, valiant tankist.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Aurelius

[Paul R]

Thanks Norm!

[GHB]

A couple unknowns with presumed reasons. I researched two WWII Lenins on two separate occasions two years apart. No luck. But separately I did find on the first, 12 numbers away was Kovpak, twice hero, and Partisan leader. Apparently partisans are also not re searchable. On the other Lenin 30 away was a tax collector. Weren't they in the MVD or some similar domestic element related to the NKVD? At any rate if he and 30 buddies all got there Lenin awards together none of the rest will be re searchable, I am satisfied with those likely answers, but I might just try again in a couple of years.

[Rogi]

Its probably the reasons you've provided GHB, when I do get a unresearchable, I think of a couple things, related to labour, partisans or super secret stuff hehehe

One day, hopefully when all the archives open up, we will get the definitive answers :)

[NavyFCO]

I was told that the Soviet awards to the US Navy were all unresearchable by multiple (three) researchers (all good people!) However, when I was last in Russia, I was gifted by the author Efimov with the research for the awards, confirming their serial numbers. I think it's all the matter of who asks whom...and who at the Archives wants to go to the effort to get some of the more unusual things. I will say though that the numbers for the US awards weren't perfect (I saw so many of them I could confirm many of the numbers having had the awards in my hands...) and in a couple cases, the same number was listed for different recipients. Typos? Perhaps. Efimov also did tell me that several of the Ushakov/Nakhimov Medals that he researched came back with the same serial number awarded to multiple recipients. Most likely a recording error in the process. One would hope it wasn't a very common error.......

[Rogi]

I was told that the Soviet awards to the US Navy were all unresearchable by multiple (three) researchers (all good people!) However, when I was last in Russia, I was gifted by the author Efimov with the research for the awards, confirming their serial numbers. I think it's all the matter of who asks whom...and who at the Archives wants to go to the effort to get some of the more unusual things. I will say though that the numbers for the US awards weren't perfect (I saw so many of them I could confirm many of the numbers having had the awards in my hands...) and in a couple cases, the same number was listed for different recipients. Typos? Perhaps. Efimov also did tell me that several of the Ushakov/Nakhimov Medals that he researched came back with the same serial number awarded to multiple recipients. Most likely a recording error in the process. One would hope it wasn't a very common error.......

Isn't their a "master" list that can prove or disprove what serial number belongs to who?

[Ferdinand]

There is, the protokoly (award issue logs), but these only list awards handled by military units and the Main Personnel Directorate of the Ministry of Defense (GUK MO). Many awards to foreigners were issued at state level and simply taken directly from the vaults of the Supreme Soviet, thus leaving no paperwork in the Ministry of Defense Archive. Therefore, researchers in the Central Archive or the Navy Archive won't be able to research these awards, while people like Yefimov have been able to dig deeper and have access to the relevant archives. Important archives such as GARF and RGASPI are still largely unknown and inaccessible to us and our researchers. Plus, it's a well-known fact in Russia that people like Yefimov, Durov, and Strekalov have better connections and thus access to much more information (such as the mint archives) than the regular researcher does.