Bavaria Ribbon Bar that has been driving me nuts for years

[Paul C]

EK2 with 1939 spange

BMV4X

Hindenburg

Tyrol campaign

DA25

DA12

What I see is a Bavarain officier with WWI service, probable Lt., who stayed in between the wars and served in WWII. I have never been able to find him. With new sources that have become available in the last few years I thought I would post this.

[Chris Boonzaier]

A pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel down the front of his pants... the barman says "Hey... whats with the steering wheel in yer trousers?" and the pirate answers, "I dunno mate, but its driving me nuts!"

Would this not be a very comman combination for a Bavarian career officer?

[Guest Rick Research]

Actually, no. Once again the UNSEEN is as important as the SEEN. Where are the usual Austrian, Hungarian, and Bulgarian WW1 Commemorative Medals?

With FOUR to pick from (free! free! FREE!) he only chose... the Tyrolean one--which unlike all the others, actually required service IN TYROL during the war for non-natives.

Alpenkorps anyone? And yet... THEY also served in the Balkans etc etc etc...so THAT ONE MEDAL meant something to the wearer...that the other group-padders didn't.

He had 25 (+) years in by 1939, meaning at least an Oberst if not a General of some rank. Joined after 1911--no Luitpold Jubilee Medal. ONLY got a BMV4X for the war (though certainly an EK1). That places him as a young Leutnant during the first war.

Continuous service in what? Reichsheeer? No joy there--we can't pick him out from all the other EK/BMV4X-ers. You're absolutely right about that.

But somewhere there is a photo of THIS guy wearing THIS bar, in an unusual style, with a distinctive combination...

that can only be found from a photo.

SOME sort of Gebirgs senior officer WW2:

entered the army 1911-14. Continuous service. This is a post-1938 bar and yet (the Unsen World again) nooooooooo Austrian Anschluss or Sudeten Medals. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Very specific career parameters....

Edited June 26, 2013 by Rick Research

[Paul C]

Would this not be a very comman combination for a Bavarian career officer?

Yes and no. No because there is no jubillee medal and yes because it has the BMV4x.

I suspect that the holder went on to be a colonel or general major in WWII. I calculated one time that about 50% of the pre-1930 officer corps made GM rank.

Rick we must have posted at the same time.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Paul C

[Chris Boonzaier]

Just a point, not hard to get the BAVarian and not get an ek1

[Guest Rick Research]

True, but with 25(+) years in... we're hoping for a General rather than a Colonel.

More likely to find a photo of a General than a Colonel.

Dreamers, us.

Pathologically driven, obsessive-compulsive, Javert-ian dreamers.

It's not easy being research gnomes.

[Dave Danner]

Just a note. He could also have gotten to 25 years with police service. So an even more anonymous EK2/BMV4Xer.

Also, from what I've seen in the Kriegsranglisten, the Austrian Military Merit Cross with War Decoration was pretty liberally awarded to Alpenkorps officers. Lack of that might narrow down the pool, if only slightly.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ayuh! The Unseen World again-- what is NOT there could well be the key.

Wish I had a LaPo Liste, but haven't seen one since doing college work in the 1970s.

[Glenn J]

Rick,

The one LaPo list I have (1934) does not list decorations.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

REAL late for that one! Mostly useful just to know who WAS in police service for those Mystery Officers who show up when not Reichsheer and not (E).

I seem to recall an early 1920s LaPo list that showed imperial army ex-affiliation--like the 1923 Reichsheer Liste does.

[Nicolas7507]

I am rather sure this ribbon bar I just bought belongs to the bar posted by Paul.

Note the hole in the EK ribbon for the Spange.

Rather difficult to find a match, but my current favourite candidate is later GL Julius Braun.

 

Joined 1913: No Luitpold, 1914-1918 mostly Gebirgskanonen-Abteilung 10, during the wars Reichswehr and 1939-1945 Divisionskommandeur.

 

It would be interesting to know if Braun received any Anschluss medals and the Tyrol medal.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Nicolas7507

[Dave Danner]

Julius Braun received the Anschlußmedaille on 8.11.1938. He also had the Ostmedaille (15.8.1942). No Tiroler LDM is listed in his personnel file.

[Nicolas7507]

Thanks Dave!

The missing jubilee medal and Anschluss medals in combination with the Tyrol medal and no ÖM3K narrow it down quite a bit but it seems to not be enough.

Tricky.

 

Alright here are two good ones, both in the Alpenkorps.

 

GM Wilhelm Ullersperger (maybe wrong devices as he got a BM4XmKr)

GL Wilhelm Raithel

Edited December 6, 2021 by Nicolas7507

[Dave Danner]

Willy Raithel is the same as Braun. Anschluß and Ostmedaille. No Tiroler LDM listed. Raithel also had the Yugoslav St. Sava, but in the grade of Commander, so around the neck rather than on a ribbon bar.

 

I don't have anything on Ullersperger. A picture of him on the AHF shows an Ostmedaille but on the buttonhole. No ribbon bar pictured.

 

EDIT TO ADD: Ullersperger commanded PB 7 in 1938, so he would have had the Anschluß too.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Dave Danner

[Nicolas7507]

Thank you very much.

From 1936 to 1940 Ullersperger was Commander of Pionierbataillon 7 which participated in the Anschluß, so he very likely received an Anschlußmedaille as well.

A pretty detailed history of PB 7 can be found here.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Nicolas7507