Wehrmacht German Ribbon Bar Tailor Shop Display Board Grail Find

[alan_g]

Here is an official Third Reich ribbon bar tailor shop board dated to 1941, which features an array of different styles of ribbon bar brackets. Which would have been priced according to metals used, lengths etc.

The board (printed cardboard, lists and explains what each bracket is made from, the dimensions and how many awards can be displayed per bar.

At the bottom of the board in the written paragraphs is a write up on guidelines set by the RZM for ribbon bar construction, specifying the use of sewing techniques and glue as acceptable forms of construction with backing cloths as optional.

This piece is the Holy Grail of German ribbon bars and manufacture and is the only written form of proof I have seen regarding any specification of guidelines published in the Third Reich for ribbon bar production.

[speedytop]

Hi alan_g,

interesting, but are you sure, that it is from 1941?

I think, based on the printing, that the cardboard/paper is several decades younger.

Uwe

[alan_g]

Hi Uwe, The date mentioned in the bottom block of text says 15.02.1941. The RZM wasn't around 20 earlier, as it was a Third Reich board of quality approval.

Best regards

Alan.

[Auseklis]

Hi Alan

Speedytop is right.

Looks like made by a collector for display.

Cheers

A

Edited September 22, 2013 by Auseklis

[alan_g]

Such fast judgements passed without any kind of indepth explanation.

The RZM was a Third Reich governing body.

A collector in my opinion would have no need for such technical data. Collectors rarely want or collect blank undecorated ribbon bars, as there is nothing of interest to them. Nothing that can be admired or researched.

This piece is more functional, which stands to reason why it would be used in a tailors shop, outfitters, or factory. It shows hand made and factory stamped varieties of acceptably approved ribbon bar brackets.

They range on this card from 16mm - 20mm wide. Comprised of various metals. Iron, zink, steel and their components.

They specify serienfertigung (series production) & handwerkerfertigung (artisan production). Obviously hand made pieces, like today, would have cost more to make possibly than the series production line standard pieces.

This board comprises CHOICE for a punter. Like now, you don't get one variety of chocolate bar in a shop, you get hundreds of varieties all different prices. I assume the bracket choices displayed on this board would have had a price guide too.

Translation:

Title: comparative tabular original clasp plates and other industrial production in different clasp wide and various materials.

The German font has rubbed off in parts I cannot work out some of the words, but I have done my best to write here what I see like for like:

Die dicke der bleche war offiziell vorgeschrieben, wonach man sich aber nicht immer ichtet.. (cannot make out this word) hat. Es wurden z.B im Mitteilungsblatt der RZM vom 15.2. 1941 lediglich nummerierte blech ohne angabe genauer masse genannt. Fur die Grosse ordensdekoration die bleche Nr 3973, 10168 . Fur die kleine Ordenschnalle ohne orden (feldspange): Bleche Nr 4039, 12671, 12671, 12672, 9848, 10567 und 12013.
Handwerklich fachgerecht hergestellte und andere zeitgenossische auch sehe einefach selbstgefertigte spangen gelten in jedem fall als originale.

Die perforationen in den blechen fur die bar devices wurden in diesen fallenfast immer nur nach bedarf zur jeweiligen auszeichnung gebohrt, teilweise grob eingeschlagen.

Aufgeloetet halteoesen fur die nadeln sowie scharniere existieren hierbelen verschiede arten. Rueckseitig wurden die bander meist vernaht aber oft nur verklebt wie es auch an aufstucke den fall ist die vernahten bander an den gewoelbter spangen wurden meist mit einem filzstreifen abgedeckt und ibohmals vernaht.

Es wurden 15 bis 18mm breite ordensband sewie litze lederstreifen finnen seidenstreifen baumwolle, leinen und Samtstreifen bis hin zu gemusterten textilien etc benutz. gelegentlich wurden auch diese streifen aufgeklebt.

English translation through google.

The thick of the sheet metals was officially prescribed, according to which one did not however always ichtet (cannot make out this word) oneself. Were called e.g. in the news sheet of the RZM from the 15.2. 1941 only numbered sheet metal without information of exact mass. Fur the large one medal decoration the sheet metals NR 3973, 10168. Fur the small medal buckle without medal (field clip): Sheet metals NR 4039, 12671, 12671, 12672, 9848, 10567 and 12013.

For the small medal buckle without medal (field clip): Sheet metals NR 4039, 12671, 12671, 12672, 9848, 10567 and 12013. By hand professionally manufactured and other zeitgenossische also see manufactured clips being valid onefold in jedem case than original.nnThe perforations in the sheet metals for without DEVICEs were bored into these fall nearly only as required for respective honor, hit partly roughly.

Eyelets soldered needles for the hinges and there are different types hierbe...n (cannot make out this word) REAR the bander usually sutured but were often glued as it is the case of the aufstucke vernahten bander at the most vaulted slides were covered with a feltstripes ibohmals(cannot make our word properly) and sutured.

There were 15 to 18mm wide decoration ribbon sewie Braid leather stripe stripes finns are cotton, linen and velvet stripes to patterned textiles etc never use. sometimes these were glued strips.

[Auseklis]

Why do you think my judgement was fast?

I can ashure you: This is printed with a computer printer withing the last 20 years. The text is completly in past not present, as it should be with a contemorary item. There would be no need for such an display contemporary. Especialy not at a taylors shop, since a taylor would not offer that much choice to his customers. Customers contemporary would not care, since the did not see the metal on the finished product.

Please be so polite to accept that my command of my nativ language might be somewhat better than yours.

The text reads:

Die Dicke der Bleche war offiziell vorgeschrieben, wonach man sich aber nicht immer gerichtet hat. Es wurden z.B. im Mitteilungsblatt der
RZM vom 15.2.1941 lediglich nummerierte Bleche ohne Angabe genauer Maße genannt. Für die große Ordensdekoration die Bleche Nr.
3973, 10302, 10168, für kleine Ordensschnallen ohne Orden (Feldspange): Bleche Nr 4039, 12672, 9848, 10567 und 12013.
Handwerklich fachgerecht hergestellte und andere zeitgenössische auch sehr einfach selbstgefertigte Spangen gelten in jedem Fall als
Originale. Die Perforationen in den Blechen für die Splinte der Bänderauflagen wurden in diesen Fällen fast immer nur nach Bedarf zur
jeweiligen Auszeichnung gebohrt, teilweise grob eingeschlagen.
Augfgelötete Halteösen für die Nadeln sowie Scharniere existieren hierbei in verschiedenen Arten. Rückseitig waren die Bänder meist
vernäht aber oft nur verklebt wie es auch an den Aufsteckelementen der Fall ist. Die vernähten Bänder an den gewölbten Spangen wurden
meist mit einem Filzstreifen abgedeckt und nochmals vernäht.
Es wurden auch 15 bis 18 mm breite Ordensbänder sowie Litze, Lederstreifen, Flanel, Seidenstreifen, Baumwolle, Leinen und Samtstreifen
bis hin zu gemusterten Textilien etc. benutzt. Gelegentlich wurde auch dieser Streifen aufgeklebt.

I'm sorry to say that the online translator failed in getting the necessary level of detail. This is, without any doubt, a display for some sort of exibition. Maybe even from a small museum. But not older than 20 years!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

it is indeed all past tense, along the lines of

"The thickness of the metal was officially determined, but the makers did not always follow the rules"

That being said, it is a very interesting card.

[speedytop]

Hi Alan,

I agree here with Auseklis unrestricted.

And the paper/cardboard is not older than 17 years, because the writing of the German word for "numbered" = nummeriert is correct in this way only since 1996.

Before 1996 it was numeriert, with only one m.

Please have an intensive look on the cursory modern printing.

Uwe

Edited October 14, 2013 by speedytop

[alan_g]

Hi Guys,

I cannot work out why someone would go to the trouble of making this piece during the 1990's. I have taken onboard your points about changes in the German language which is useful. As words have changed since 1945.

On the back of this item in pencil is something written in Sutterlin. I cannot read Sutterlin. So I make a scan of this and maybes this will shed some more light on this maybes.

Failing that I wonder if the cardboard backing can be carbon dated? With it being an organic material this would maybes be all conclusive for a date. Then work out what exactly this was for, other than the reason I gave.

If put in a museum of some kind this would have to be bigger for people to see, no? as the writing is very small. I cannot imagine there being a ribbon bar museum in Germany... if there is i'd be interested in a visit there

Best Regards.

Alan.

Edited September 22, 2013 by alan_g

[Chris Boonzaier]

If put in a museum of some kind this would have to be bigger for people to see, no? as the writing is very small. I cannot imagine there being a ribbon bar museum in Germany... if there is i'd be interested in a visit there

I dont want to sound negative, but some shows in Germany have displays done by collectors,usually concentrating on a theme and meaning to educate people about some militaria aspect.

The text is really all past tense.

Carbon dating would not proove anything, I myself use old boards to mount things, there are plenty around and it is better than throwing them away.

No Matter when this was done, it is still very interesting.

Best

Chris

[IrishGunner]

Carbon dating... Just in case anyone needs the formula...

Although, I suspect the linguistic translation formula already offered by native speakers is much simpler and you won't have to turn a scrap of the board into ash to do the test...

Edited September 23, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Les]

 

Carbon dating... Just in case anyone needs the formula...

Although, I suspect the linguistic translation formula already offered by native speakers is much simpler and you won't have to turn a scrap of the board into ash to do the test...

 

C-14 dating has reliability limits related to sample size and estimated age. The best methods with a large sample can produce an estimated range of plus/minus fifty years. The oldest samples that can be dated are upwards of fifty-thousand years, and again, with a large sample (roughly a US ounce) at best gives a plus/minus factor of several hundred years.

In theory, the plus/minus range of something thought to be a WWII era item, could produce a "plus" date that hasn't yet happened.

In short, dating WWII paper items isn't going to work out well. There are however, other methods that can be used to examine the rate of ink or pigment dispersion through Brownian movement, on paper or other surfaces. Dies and pigments used to make ink and paint can be examined to see if all the trace elements and compounds to make specific inks/colors, etc, are correct for the period, or more recent.

[Auseklis]

Dies and pigments used to make ink and paint can be examined to see if all the trace elements and compounds to make specific inks/colors, etc, are correct for the period, or more recent.

Les

No ink involved here... If Alan realy wants to spend lots of money for verifying this item, there might be a cheaper way than C14 (about 900.- Euro that would be). I think a forensic analysis of the printing by microscopic analysis of the toner should cost about half that money.

[Jock Auld]

Alan,

I can hardly write English so I trust the German speakers that state it is past tence, that aside as Chris hi-lights it is still quite interseting and obviously a labour of love for someone at some point.

I think you need to try and establish if what is printed is fact because if it is it is still very useful for reference.

You may be able to pick up the torch where someone had to let it go for what ever reason (look at the recent turn of events with Rick), could keep you busy for a while!

Just a thought.

Jock:)

[alan_g]

Hi Guys,

The process of looking at the pigments would be a better and easier step to take and I have asked some friends to help me out with this If I can pin a more accurate date for this piece then that would be great.

I appreciate that this item has been done post war now. But still cannot understand why anyone would go to these HUGE lengths to create something so "unique" out of objects that hold no real significance if that makes sense? Who ever he/she was put a serious amount of effort into the research behind it. Obviously looking through old catalogues for brace manufacture numbers codes etc.

As promised I will post on the Sutterlin from the back of this card. See if anyone can help work it out.

I have a friend who I have asked to help translate this paragraph into better English from the German, to retain the detail and context of the script.

I will also scan each individual brace front and back and post these to the thread as a further reference guide, as these are all comprised of different manufacturing assemblies. (Good opportunity for a collective focus at the "bare bones") I will post alongside these with the original breakdown of it's specifications.

[alan_g]

Here is the back text

[Chris Boonzaier]

I appreciate that this item has been done post war now. But still cannot understand why anyone would go to these HUGE lengths to create something so "unique" out of objects that hold no real significance if that makes sense?

I am sure there are quite a few of us who have made complex little displays noone will ever see... collectors, bored, rainy night.... nothing on the TV...

And then again... as said.... some folks do displays... and they ARE seen...

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/59993-omrs-convention-2013/

I will bet your board was made by someone who went to a lot of trouble to do a display at a local show.....

[alan_g]

Bracket 1.

16mm - hand manufactured in zink. for 1 (30mm) or 2 awards (15mm). Brass needle.

[alan_g]

Catch and hinge assembly

[alan_g]

Bracket 2.

17mm industrial stamped piece. Interesting catch production with a single strip of metal being used as the retainer for the round brass sharpened pin. The retainer is wrapped around the pin and then fed through the front of the bracket, and press folded into hollowed section. When the pin is released from its catch there is movement from the hinge, which would be expected from this type of manufacture.

[alan_g]

Bracket 3.

17mm hand made iron bracket. With a flat steel pin with a sharp point. Design suitable for 3 15mm awards or for 2 Bavarian style folded 15mm ribbons. 2 very sunken hand pierced holes punctured centrally for 2 devices.

[alan_g]

Back shot.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Very educative! Keep them coming!!

[alan_g]

Bracket 4.

17.5mm hand made from zink. Round brass pin with rounded point. Suitable for up to 10, 15mm award ribbons.

On the front of the bracket is a pilot etch exactly in the centre of the bar. This is for guidance with the later placement of any devices, which would then be drilled into the bracket where the device would be added.

The back hinge is a simple round piece of brass, which has been brazed onto the sheet metal. The brass pin has been fed through this hinge and curved under, to prevent falling out.

The catch is quite crude, and looks like a modified uniform fastening catch.

[alan_g]

Bracket 5.

17.5mm hand manufactured. Iron bracket with sharp brass round pin. suitable for 1 30mm award ribbon or two 15mm award ribbons.

The catch and the hinge have been stamped or shaped out of thin metal. The hook of the catch has been brazen onto a flat brass sheet before its addition to this bracket. The pin is the same brass as the hook.