Jump to content

Need help with this Red Banner


Recommended Posts

Hello everyone,

 

Just got this Red banner from online biding. I know that there are similar examples of low digi suspension type RB in N. Strekalov and V. Durov's book and collectrussia had this kind of RB as well in 2013, but I still have doubt if it is just a 6 digi RB been artificially changed to 5 digi.

 

What do you think of this RB?

 

Thank you.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The number does look odd.  Can you please post some close ups of the number?  Perhaps some with different light reflections to see if there are signs of gentle removal of the first number?  I think that this number should reflect a screwback award.  I think that reissued versions have the "Duplicate" mark on them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please post some better quality pics when you can. I can't see enough detail to come up with an opinion.

 

Regards,

 

 

The number does look odd.  Can you please post some close ups of the number?  Perhaps some with different light reflections to see if there are signs of gentle removal of the first number?  I think that this number should reflect a screwback award.  I think that reissued versions have the "Duplicate" mark on them.

 

 

As Paul mentioned, plus the front of the Order looks pretty rough and a bit blurry, better pics would help a LOT :D

 

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for your reply. I've received the RB today. New photos have been posted.

 

Seems the whole SN area is a bit sunk by polishing. If you think the SN was altered, is it by official or just for faking?

 

Additional information: the auctioneer mentioned this RB is from a private collection purchased in Berlin circa 1980s.

 

Spartan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I think the serial number is altered.

 

I see faint lines running horizontal with the numbers (arrows in red) and the makers mark is uneven in depth (yellow arrows).

 

The number does look odd.  Can you please post some close ups of the number?  Perhaps some with different light reflections to see if there are signs of gentle removal of the first number?  I think that this number should reflect a screwback award.  I think that reissued versions have the "Duplicate" mark on them.

 

The serial number is for a screw back, but there was 'reissues' given out at the end of the war for the Victory parade, (and I would assume for various other victory functions at that time) these do not have a 'D' marked on them.

 

Here is a link from another forum on the topic:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders-medals-badges-decorations-corresponding-documents/confused-about-order-red-banner-26467/

 

Regards,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially.  I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially.  I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. 

I agree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I think the serial number is altered.

 

I see faint lines running horizontal with the numbers (arrows in red) and the makers mark is uneven in depth (yellow arrows).

 

 

The serial number is for a screw back, but there was 'reissues' given out at the end of the war for the Victory parade, (and I would assume for various other victory functions at that time) these do not have a 'D' marked on them.

 

Here is a link from another forum on the topic:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders-medals-badges-decorations-corresponding-documents/confused-about-order-red-banner-26467/

 

Regards,

 

 

The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially.  I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. 

 

 

I agree.

 

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you very much for your opinion!

 

I am pleased to have a red banner with such low SN number which may awarded in late 1941. It's definitely for gallantry. I will try to search the archive.

 

Spartan

Edited by spartan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially.  I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. 

 

Cost me Â£ 360  :banger: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is very expensive, even if real.  I think that the award has an unofficial alteration.  Who knows... the real veteran may have found this and had it renumbered to replace his, but no one will ever know.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is very expensive, even if real.  I think that the award has an unofficial alteration.  Who knows... the real veteran may have found this and had it renumbered to replace his, but no one will ever know.  

 

Dear Paul,

 

Yes, I realized it is expensive, won't buy the same thing again.  

 

But I still consider it is an official alteration after thinking it again.  First, the SN area was carefully polished and the style of engraved serial number looks similar to my Order of red star which awarded in late 1943, I don't think an ordinary people can do this. Second, there are similar examples in N. Strekalov and V. Durov's Red Banner book on page 113, the book also mentioned the purpose is exchanging the old type Red Banner (read it with Google translation :cheeky: ). Third, patina of polished alteration area match other area, means the alteration has been done long time ago, probably the same period the Red Banner was produced.

 

Best wishes,

 

Spartan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could be absolutely correct and it could be made for a veteran who wanted to upgrade/replace his original award... or... for me, too many what ifs, as the official replacements did not (that I am aware of) have original numbers erased and new numbers replaced.  

 

I hope that you are right.  

 

Anyway, I definitely want to see the research you obtain on this number when it comes in. 

 

Regards

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is the think that keeps me from mentally ruling it out 100% as well.  The number is etched in the exact manner as I see on unmodified awards.  Regardless, I bet that the citation is going to be a true winner. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could be absolutely correct and it could be made for a veteran who wanted to upgrade/replace his original award... or... for me, too many what ifs, as the official replacements did not (that I am aware of) have original numbers erased and new numbers replaced.  

 

I hope that you are right.  

 

Anyway, I definitely want to see the research you obtain on this number when it comes in. 

 

Regards

Paul

 

 I will post the search result as soon as I get it.

 

Best,

 

spartan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends, if you have faith in the number, as was mentioned previously it is a good hand at the serial number, then it is whatever the buyer believes to be true in a sense and if it won't leave your collection no matter what (true or fake) then who cares, enjoy the order for what it is.

There are similar cases with any type of hand engraving, it is neither unlikely that it could be legit, or could be a well done forgery, either option remains on the table :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends, if you have faith in the number, as was mentioned previously it is a good hand at the serial number, then it is whatever the buyer believes to be true in a sense and if it won't leave your collection no matter what (true or fake) then who cares, enjoy the order for what it is.

There are similar cases with any type of hand engraving, it is neither unlikely that it could be legit, or could be a well done forgery, either option remains on the table :)

​Hi Rogi,

I think what we believe should based on the facts. Besides the reasons I mentioned above, another indirect reason makes me believe it is original is changing serial number from 6 digi to 5 digi doesn't make the price of a suspension type Red Banner increase much higher.

People generally make fake Gold Star, 2nd screw post Red Banner and top Soviet military orders, because the original ones are pricey. I only know two or three low serial number suspension type Red Banner exist. I don't think people would put such effort on forging a suspension type Red Banner which only worth hundreds of USD.

Spartan 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

​Hi Rogi,

I think what we believe should based on the facts. Besides the reasons I mentioned above, another indirect reason makes me believe it is original is changing serial number from 6 digi to 5 digi doesn't make the price of a suspension type Red Banner increase much higher.

People generally make fake Gold Star, 2nd screw post Red Banner and top Soviet military orders, because the original ones are pricey. I only know two or three low serial number suspension type Red Banner exist. I don't think people would put such effort on forging a suspension type Red Banner which only worth hundreds of USD.

Spartan

​You would be surprised what people fake and why, people generally don't fake Seiko watches either, but the fakes are available and unusual ones of these pieces (different dial color that is claimed as an original piece, sometimes claim higher prices on auction websites) You mentioned yourself that you paid a expensive amount of money that is higher than usual for this type of Red Banner.

 There is a possibility that it is either,  you can't say for sure and claim it is legitimate, and neither can we say this is a forgery as everyone only assumes to a certain amount. That is why I mentioned it is probably from all experiences good, although the number is edited, can we prove where it came from, no?The number itself is good from all accounts. But then again, it has been edited, Either option remains on the table.

Without some actual proof, you can't say outright that it is a good or bad piece, just as you mentioned and as an example, if the 6 digit's serial came back with bad/non-existent/cable man research, that is reason enough to a forger to have it changed to an early 5 digit research, or even to change it to 5 digit because it makes the order more appealing, which the price paid although seems small in USD, is a lot of money in other countries.

It could also be a 6 digit converted down to 5 digit by veteran, because the veteran didn't want people to know who originally was the recipient of the order. (looking back, Paul suggested this as well)

and as was previously suggested, this also could be converted elsewhere (factory, etc. ) there is too much of a "what if" that we could generally and fully say that the piece is legitimate, or not legitimate and not enough proof/facts out there to rule this piece in, or out. As long as  you are happy with it, then that is it, it is a possible legit piece that may render very interesting research and hopefully one day this "mystery" of the serial number may be solved.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

You could be absolutely correct and it could be made for a veteran who wanted to upgrade/replace his original award... or... for me, too many what ifs, as the official replacements did not (that I am aware of) have original numbers erased and new numbers replaced.  

 

I hope that you are right.  

 

Anyway, I definitely want to see the research you obtain on this number when it comes in. 

 

Regards

Paul

Just got reply from research, the Red Star belongs to a HSU in Winter War.

317932

' alt='' class='ipsImage' >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Blog Comments

    • As a theology student my professor, a much published former Naval chaplain, set us an essay, saying that if we could answer that successfully we would be guaranteed  a good degree "Which of the gospel writers was the biggest liar, discuss."   I got a good mark, but  don't want to be burned for heresy.   P
    • As my father used to say: "Tain't so much Pappy's a liar - he just remembers big."  
    • Brian: First, let me say that I always enjoy reading your blog and your "spot on" comments.  Another fine topic with such a broad expansion into so many different facets.  I had watched this a week or two ago and when reading your blog, it reminded me of this great quote.   There is a great video on the origins of "Who was Murphy in Murphy's Law"   Anyway, about mid way through this video, there is this great quote and I think it sums it up quite well to your statem
    • I've received word from the Curator that she has permission to re-open this summer.   We're already making plans for a November event at the Museum.   Michael
    • I recall I did the same on hot days at Old Fort York back in 1973-74 - wool uniforms, and at 90F they would let you take your backpack off.   Michael
×
×
  • Create New...