spartan Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Hello everyone, Just got this Red banner from online biding. I know that there are similar examples of low digi suspension type RB in N. Strekalov and V. Durov's book and collectrussia had this kind of RB as well in 2013, but I still have doubt if it is just a 6 digi RB been artificially changed to 5 digi. What do you think of this RB? Thank you.
Leaftree Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Please post some better quality pics when you can. I can't see enough detail to come up with an opinion. Regards,
Paul R Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 The number does look odd. Can you please post some close ups of the number? Perhaps some with different light reflections to see if there are signs of gentle removal of the first number? I think that this number should reflect a screwback award. I think that reissued versions have the "Duplicate" mark on them.
Rogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 As Paul mentioned, plus the front of the Order looks pretty rough and a bit blurry, better pics would help a LOT :D
spartan Posted March 3, 2015 Author Posted March 3, 2015 Please post some better quality pics when you can. I can't see enough detail to come up with an opinion. Regards, The number does look odd. Can you please post some close ups of the number? Perhaps some with different light reflections to see if there are signs of gentle removal of the first number? I think that this number should reflect a screwback award. I think that reissued versions have the "Duplicate" mark on them. As Paul mentioned, plus the front of the Order looks pretty rough and a bit blurry, better pics would help a LOT Hello everyone, Thank you for your reply. I've received the RB today. New photos have been posted. Seems the whole SN area is a bit sunk by polishing. If you think the SN was altered, is it by official or just for faking? Additional information: the auctioneer mentioned this RB is from a private collection purchased in Berlin circa 1980s. Spartan
Leaftree Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Yes, I think the serial number is altered. I see faint lines running horizontal with the numbers (arrows in red) and the makers mark is uneven in depth (yellow arrows). The number does look odd. Can you please post some close ups of the number? Perhaps some with different light reflections to see if there are signs of gentle removal of the first number? I think that this number should reflect a screwback award. I think that reissued versions have the "Duplicate" mark on them. The serial number is for a screw back, but there was 'reissues' given out at the end of the war for the Victory parade, (and I would assume for various other victory functions at that time) these do not have a 'D' marked on them. Here is a link from another forum on the topic: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders-medals-badges-decorations-corresponding-documents/confused-about-order-red-banner-26467/ Regards,
Paul R Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially. I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price.
Leaftree Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially. I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. I agree.
spartan Posted March 4, 2015 Author Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Yes, I think the serial number is altered. I see faint lines running horizontal with the numbers (arrows in red) and the makers mark is uneven in depth (yellow arrows). The serial number is for a screw back, but there was 'reissues' given out at the end of the war for the Victory parade, (and I would assume for various other victory functions at that time) these do not have a 'D' marked on them. Here is a link from another forum on the topic: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders-medals-badges-decorations-corresponding-documents/confused-about-order-red-banner-26467/ Regards, The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially. I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. I agree. Hello everyone, Thank you very much for your opinion! I am pleased to have a red banner with such low SN number which may awarded in late 1941. It's definitely for gallantry. I will try to search the archive. Spartan Edited March 4, 2015 by spartan
spartan Posted March 4, 2015 Author Posted March 4, 2015 The numbers look like they are executed in the same manner as I am used to seeing, but I have never seen another award number removed in this manner and reissued officially. I would buy this as an altered award, for a very low price. Cost me £ 360
Paul R Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 That is very expensive, even if real. I think that the award has an unofficial alteration. Who knows... the real veteran may have found this and had it renumbered to replace his, but no one will ever know.
spartan Posted March 4, 2015 Author Posted March 4, 2015 That is very expensive, even if real. I think that the award has an unofficial alteration. Who knows... the real veteran may have found this and had it renumbered to replace his, but no one will ever know. Dear Paul, Yes, I realized it is expensive, won't buy the same thing again. But I still consider it is an official alteration after thinking it again. First, the SN area was carefully polished and the style of engraved serial number looks similar to my Order of red star which awarded in late 1943, I don't think an ordinary people can do this. Second, there are similar examples in N. Strekalov and V. Durov's Red Banner book on page 113, the book also mentioned the purpose is exchanging the old type Red Banner (read it with Google translation ). Third, patina of polished alteration area match other area, means the alteration has been done long time ago, probably the same period the Red Banner was produced. Best wishes, Spartan
Paul R Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 You could be absolutely correct and it could be made for a veteran who wanted to upgrade/replace his original award... or... for me, too many what ifs, as the official replacements did not (that I am aware of) have original numbers erased and new numbers replaced. I hope that you are right. Anyway, I definitely want to see the research you obtain on this number when it comes in. Regards Paul
Ferdinand Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Not sure what to think of this piece, but the serial number looks professionally done. RB #20679 was awarded by the Southwestern Front, most likely in November or December 1941.
Paul R Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 That is the think that keeps me from mentally ruling it out 100% as well. The number is etched in the exact manner as I see on unmodified awards. Regardless, I bet that the citation is going to be a true winner.
spartan Posted March 5, 2015 Author Posted March 5, 2015 You could be absolutely correct and it could be made for a veteran who wanted to upgrade/replace his original award... or... for me, too many what ifs, as the official replacements did not (that I am aware of) have original numbers erased and new numbers replaced. I hope that you are right. Anyway, I definitely want to see the research you obtain on this number when it comes in. Regards Paul I will post the search result as soon as I get it. Best, spartan
Rogi Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 It depends, if you have faith in the number, as was mentioned previously it is a good hand at the serial number, then it is whatever the buyer believes to be true in a sense and if it won't leave your collection no matter what (true or fake) then who cares, enjoy the order for what it is.There are similar cases with any type of hand engraving, it is neither unlikely that it could be legit, or could be a well done forgery, either option remains on the table
spartan Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 It depends, if you have faith in the number, as was mentioned previously it is a good hand at the serial number, then it is whatever the buyer believes to be true in a sense and if it won't leave your collection no matter what (true or fake) then who cares, enjoy the order for what it is.There are similar cases with any type of hand engraving, it is neither unlikely that it could be legit, or could be a well done forgery, either option remains on the table Hi Rogi,I think what we believe should based on the facts. Besides the reasons I mentioned above, another indirect reason makes me believe it is original is changing serial number from 6 digi to 5 digi doesn't make the price of a suspension type Red Banner increase much higher.People generally make fake Gold Star, 2nd screw post Red Banner and top Soviet military orders, because the original ones are pricey. I only know two or three low serial number suspension type Red Banner exist. I don't think people would put such effort on forging a suspension type Red Banner which only worth hundreds of USD.Spartan
Rogi Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 Hi Rogi,I think what we believe should based on the facts. Besides the reasons I mentioned above, another indirect reason makes me believe it is original is changing serial number from 6 digi to 5 digi doesn't make the price of a suspension type Red Banner increase much higher.People generally make fake Gold Star, 2nd screw post Red Banner and top Soviet military orders, because the original ones are pricey. I only know two or three low serial number suspension type Red Banner exist. I don't think people would put such effort on forging a suspension type Red Banner which only worth hundreds of USD.SpartanYou would be surprised what people fake and why, people generally don't fake Seiko watches either, but the fakes are available and unusual ones of these pieces (different dial color that is claimed as an original piece, sometimes claim higher prices on auction websites) You mentioned yourself that you paid a expensive amount of money that is higher than usual for this type of Red Banner. There is a possibility that it is either, you can't say for sure and claim it is legitimate, and neither can we say this is a forgery as everyone only assumes to a certain amount. That is why I mentioned it is probably from all experiences good, although the number is edited, can we prove where it came from, no?The number itself is good from all accounts. But then again, it has been edited, Either option remains on the table.Without some actual proof, you can't say outright that it is a good or bad piece, just as you mentioned and as an example, if the 6 digit's serial came back with bad/non-existent/cable man research, that is reason enough to a forger to have it changed to an early 5 digit research, or even to change it to 5 digit because it makes the order more appealing, which the price paid although seems small in USD, is a lot of money in other countries.It could also be a 6 digit converted down to 5 digit by veteran, because the veteran didn't want people to know who originally was the recipient of the order. (looking back, Paul suggested this as well)and as was previously suggested, this also could be converted elsewhere (factory, etc. ) there is too much of a "what if" that we could generally and fully say that the piece is legitimate, or not legitimate and not enough proof/facts out there to rule this piece in, or out. As long as you are happy with it, then that is it, it is a possible legit piece that may render very interesting research and hopefully one day this "mystery" of the serial number may be solved.
spartan Posted March 14, 2015 Author Posted March 14, 2015 You could be absolutely correct and it could be made for a veteran who wanted to upgrade/replace his original award... or... for me, too many what ifs, as the official replacements did not (that I am aware of) have original numbers erased and new numbers replaced. I hope that you are right. Anyway, I definitely want to see the research you obtain on this number when it comes in. RegardsPaulJust got reply from research, the Red Star belongs to a HSU in Winter War. ' alt='' class='ipsImage' >
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