webr55 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) This Imperial Navy bar - which came from a seller in Alabama - seems common, but in fact it is not. It is a navy officer's bar, for the "monkey dress" jacket, pre-1914. Red Eagle Order (4th cl probably), Crown Order (4th cl probably), China Medal, Centenary. (but NO LS award!)The combination seems common, but, ok assuming this is the last pre-war bar the wearer had, there is - surprisingly - only one candidate:char. Marine-Generalarzt Dr. Heinrich Schmidt (1871-1945) The combination of having NO long service award BUT still the 1897 Centenary medal AND the China Medal makes it ID'able.Dr. Heinrich Schmidt entered Navy service 1.10.1896 (so just in time to get the 1897 medal)Oberstabsarzt 27.3.1909Generaloberarzt 24.5.1916Char. Marine-Generalarzt 27.4.1921Here is his entry in the 1918 ranklist, with wartime awards: He got PKO4 10.10.1901 as Marineoberassistenzarzt, Marinestation der NordseeRAO4 9.5.1909 as Marineoberstabsarzt, SMS ZähringenBut most important, his China medal is shown in the DOA 1908/09: The Navy Ehrenrangliste has his final rank:All other candidates either do not list a China medal or held a LS award. A particularly interesting case is Korvettenkapitän Hermann Buchholz, who holds the same awards as Schmidt in 1914 (without LS award) BUT his LS is listed in the 1918 RL.By chance, I found Schmidt's death date on the internet: He died at the military hospital Bad Nenndorf in 1945: Marine-General, Arzt a.D., Medizinalrat SCHMIDT, DR. MED. Heinrich 25.07.1871, Homburg v.d.Höhe 05.12.1945, Bad Nenndorf Link: http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/dkm_deutschland/bad_nenndorf_frdh_wk2_ns.htm Edited October 2, 2015 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Would never have believed a simple 4er bar was identifyable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 The China medal is not listed in the ranklist. What source did you use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) China Medals are listed in the DOA 1908/09. I know yes - some caution here (Rick, I remember!) - steel versions are not necessarily listed. Usually these went to Zahlmeister and similar types. But no one really fits here.The other candidates, judging from their 1914 combinations, are:KK Mündel (2.4.95)KK Kahlert (2.4.95), had a RAO4mKrKK Westerkamp (16.4.94), had a RAO4mKrOStA Dr. Gersdorf (1.4.88)All of these are in the DOA, with Centenary but without China Medal.There is one other vague candidate: Stabszahlmeister Magnus Lange (29.3.78) had RAO and PKO, no LS award, but is not listed in the DOA at all. So yes, ID is not 100%, but quite good. Edited October 2, 2015 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Agreed. The DOA is not all inclusive. Did you check the DOA 1902/03 and the 06 for Lange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 No I don't have them. A good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 I checked an he is not listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted October 4, 2015 Author Share Posted October 4, 2015 Thanks Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 One thing I have found frustrating is that campaign, commemorative and jubilee medals are often not even listed in the full personnel files. If they were actually in China or Southwest Africa, that would not be a problem, but for the steel ones ... I think the shortest I ID'd was a three-medal bar, but that was a medal bar rather than a ribbon bar, so I had the advantage of knowing exactly which classes of the decorations I was dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) Five years later, checking the other possible candidates in more detail, one fits also very well: Kapitän zS Siegfried Westerkamp (1874-1970), he had a RAO4mKr, China Medal not listed in DOA, but he was in China as Oberlt on SMS Bussard. Chairman of the MOV in 1919. Was in the industry later, and on the Vorstand of the Hafen-Dampfschiffahrts-AG Hamburg around 1941 (http://www.bundesarchiv.de/aktenreichskanzlei/1919-1933/0pa/adr/adrsz/kap1_5/para2_117.html) Couldn't find out much about: - Stabszahlmeister Magnus Lange, he is not in the DOA, got the RAO (17.1.1909, Marinestation Ostsee, Abw. Büro als Marine-Stabszahlm.) and PKO (19.1.1902, Marinestation Ostsee als Marine-Oberzahlm.). No DA listed, and China Steel version cannot be ruled out. The other suspects are much less likely: - char. Konteradmiral Harry Mündel (1876-1946) was not in China in 1901 and not in rear service, so a Steel version is improbable - Vizeadmiral Wilhelm Kahlert (1877-1932), same as above - OStA Dr. Gersdorf, no evidence of China Edited July 11, 2020 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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