interesting ribbon device

[bravo2zero]

Gentlemen.In a group that I recently bought the officers medal bar shows an interesting device on the second ribbon.The first ribbon is of course the Iron Cross.The second is a Hohenzollern Order with swords.

The soldiers grandson assures me that the Crown Order 4th class with swords that was with the grouping was always there.Could this three part device possibly indicate the Crown award combined with the Hohenzollern Order.The recipient was Major Philip Sander PLM winner in 1918.The bottom part of the device is a wreath,the middle part the crossed swords, and the top section the Crown.It is superbly made.

Mike

[Deruelle]

Hi Mike,

Can you post one photo please?

Regards

Christophe

[Deruelle]

For Mikke, I can only work on the device.

pour_Mike_2.doc

[Daniel Murphy]

Here it is. I just had to save it to other types of files 3 or 4 times to get a jpeg. Kind of looks like a device with the crown order with swords on top of a Wuerttemburg Gold Bravery medal wreath.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[webr55]

This is useless. We need to see a good scan of the entire bar, front and back.

[Stogieman]

Well, the crown through swords is un-commonly used, but we do see it. Over the wreath, not before this. A full photo of the bar, front & back, is needed!!

[bravo2zero]

Thanks for the input.I will take some photos this weekend and then post them for comments.Mike.

Well, the crown through swords is un-commonly used, but we do see it. Over the wreath, not before this. A full photo of the bar, front & back, is needed!!

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't know which of the many Sanders was the PLM winner, since the Prussian Rank Lists do not show first names, but NONE of them had a Crown 4X. That was a COLONIAL award, and there should be a colonial campaign medal for there to be one, except in the most peculiar of minor (usually naval) circumstances.

[Stogieman]

PS. I cannot imagine a Prussian shorting himself a "war ribbon" in any instance or combination......

[Daniel Murphy]

I cannot imagine a Prussian shorting himself a "war ribbon" in any instance or combination......

Stogie,

That is exactly the first thing I thought when I saw this. Perhaps that Crown order is from another member of the family.

Dan Murphy

[Glenn J]

Major Philipp Sander is shown as the Adjutant of the 6. Division in the 1914 edition of the Prussian Army List. He was awarded his PLM as the commander of Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 65. Promoted to Oberstleutnant on 18.5.20 and to Oberst on 1.4.1921 he retired as the Oberst on the staff of Infanterie-Regiment 18 in Paderborn on the 3.8.1921. He is not in my list of "Tannenberg" charakter promotions of 1938 so although still alive in the 1930s may well have been dead by the anniversary of Tannenberg in 1938.

Regards

Glenn

[bravo2zero]

Glenn.As you can see in that photo the second ribbon has the crown and swords but not the wreath.In the oil painting of him done in 1920 he wears the same bar again without the wreath...so perhaps just a tailors copy?I spoke with the grandson who was certain that the entire grouping had never been touched and was still in a box with all the documents as left to him by his father.As you will see from the photos which I will put on the web after the weekend the awards are not mounted but still on individual ribbons.However as Rick has said, and as is born out by the statement of service that details his awards, he did NOT receive a Crown Order.The family got out of the Eastern Zone just after WW2 as the Russians arrived, so it is wonderful that anything survived at all.Could you tell me what unit the large emblems on the collar represent?Sander died on April 1st,1936.

Mike

Major Philipp Sander is shown as the Adjutant of the 6. Division in the 1914 edition of the Prussian Army List. He was awarded his PLM as the commander of Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 65. Promoted to Oberstleutnant on 18.5.20 and to Oberst on 1.4.1921 he retired as the Oberst on the staff of Infanterie-Regiment 18 in Paderborn on the 3.8.1921. He is not in my list of "Tannenberg" charakter promotions of 1938 so although still alive in the 1930s may well have been dead by the anniversary of Tannenberg in 1938.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

The collar insignia are those of the 1919 Freikorps, the "Deutsche Schutzdivision."