HEER - SS LS Miniature Bar

[Guest Darrell]

Seems this one has gotten a few old fellas a little hostile on WAF.

Some like it ... others dont. Thought I'd show it here.

[webr55]

Ouch!

1) EK2 and War Merit Medal!

2) THREE LS decorations!

3) SS LS was only for members of Totenkopf, Junkerschulen and SS-VT, not parttime Allgemeine members, as this bar seems to suggest!

and and and ...

[PKeating]

I think you will find that any full time SS service counted towards an SS LS award, although they were suspended when the war began in earnest.

The wearer would have been a combattant in WW1. He then serves in WW2, winning the EK2 and qualifying for the Winter War Medal, which places him in Russia in 1941/42. In addition, he was with the armed forces in the late 1930s, as the Flower War Medals show. The Army LS Medals show eight years' service. He then picks up a War Merit Medal and a West Wall Medal. On the face of it, the SS LS Medal doesn't fit.

Were there an LS Cross hanging there, it would be more believable. One could envision a WW1 veteran who went on to serve in the Reichsheer and then the Heer, participating in the Austrian and Czechoslovak annexations and the seizure of Prague and then in Russia, picking up the EK2 along the way. The West Wall Medal could either be for garrison service on the Western Defences or for some kind of qualifying work as a civilian after leaving the army following service in Russia. This would explain the War Merit Medal, which is really a civilian award. Let's say that he was a twenty-five year career soldier. He enlists in 1918, sees action before the end, earning the Hindenburg Cross in 1934, and retires in 1943, moving into defence-related work in a civilian or party/paramilitary capacity.

However, who is to say that he did not transfer into the SS-VT or one of those units as, say, one of the experienced regular army NCOs or Officers brought in by Hausser and Steiner to train the fledgling SS-VT? Who is to say that he was not with the Allgemeine-SS before 1933, thereby racking up enough points to get the 8-Year medal? Kampfzeit service counted, I think, as double time towards an SS LS award, which is how some members were able to qualify for the 25 Year cross.

Unlikely as this bar seems, it is just possible that a man could acquire these awards.

Hope this helps, Darrell.

Regards,

PK

[Ulsterman]

Two comments:

Flower war medals were awarded to a variety of folks-not just people in uniform, so he might hypothetically undefined be a civillian

and

has anyone ever seen this type of 'miniture bar before?

Also, the KDM before the rest of the stuff is bothersome to me: most everybody I have ever encountered with this was a tram driver or lathe operator or a typist.

Lastly: I think it's a fake.

[Guest WAR LORD]

I would like to agree with PK thoughts. However the award of the 4 year and 8 year SS medal was as,,

SS Long Service Medal - 8 Year Service

This medal was awarded to those members of the SS who were in the SS-Verf?gungstruppen, SS-Totenkopfverb?nde and SS-Junkerschulen who were on active service and served honourably. It was rendered for eight years service and could be conferred on all ranks, NCOs and other ranks. The accumulation of service could be accrued from the re-founding of the NSDAP in 1925. The period known as the 'Time of Struggle', or 'Kampfzeit', which was interpreted as being from 1925 to 1933, Hitler's coming to power, counted as double, as did active military service. Recommendations for award came from the Reichsf?hrer-SS and the final approval vested with the Chancellery. It is believed that the bestowal of the medal ceased by the end of 1941.

The bar tends not to hold with the needs of qualification.

[Stogieman]

I can only echo others' sentiments here. I would place this in the "highly unlikely, but not impossible" category.... I take it we're talking about a miniature bar here? Not a full sized bar? Frankly, that does make it moderately more believable to me as if he was a civilian... a miniature bar would actually be more appropriate. The miniature bars I have seen that were outright fakes did not have this double-furled ribbon arrangement. I would not buy this as anything other than a curiousity and then I would disect it for UV reactivity, etc. A photo of the back would be nice to see.

[Guest Darrell]

Well guys, I'd just love to copy and paste the war of words flying over there about this one, but I'd rather not mention names or put quotes in here. The fellow that has this (minature bar) swears up and down that it's a real deal combination. I know nothing about these, but thought it was rather rude the way the person was treating others that had doubts about this one.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Darrell

[Scott]

I was the first one in the WAF forum to say I was "uncomfortable" with the bar for reasons already stated. The owner asked for comment and I gave him mine. It went down-hill from there.

Could the bar be authentic? Certainly - stranger things have been authenticated. Would I enquire further if I saw this bar in a dealer's case? No. Just my opinion, nothing more.

Scott

[Peter J]

Darrell, thank's for posting this interesting piece. I wish I could present an opinion, but with these poor photos, I don't think it would of any use. This is not the first time a miniature combi has come up for evaluation, but the criteria for this evaluation differs significantly, compared to other items. I don't believe a ribbon bar in normal size would attract an opinion, unless better photos are provided. In this thread, no one had an issue with a medal as such, the whole focus was directed towards the possibility of combination.

Is it possible to get a better scan of i.g. the Ostfront medal?

KR

Peter

[Guest Darrell]

... double post

Edited March 27, 2006 by Darrell

[Guest Darrell]

Hi guys. Thanks for coming in. Like you say, the pictures we see (other than a reverse pic) which I will show below, is all that was presented. The fellow that got indignant is a moderator over there and it sure showing some poor class on his part for going off on Scott and others. Stogie has commented already. He and the other evil Rick (or is he the good Rick ) are some of the resident experts on these guys. If they give them the thumbs down, I don't think there's much hope.

Also for those that care, here is the original post on WAF:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=149936

Edited March 27, 2006 by Darrell

[Peter J]

How did I miss that one? . Well, it proves my point, 33 posts and only Don asked for better images.

KR

Peter

[Guest Rick Research]

This bar is not only COMPLETELY impossible, it is ABSURDLY impossible--

starting with the freakish Tito-YUGOSLAV style fantasy mounting.

There is simply NO getting around THAT, regardless of what is on this one, or any of the others which all appeared at the same time.

Point by point (and these are not all of 'em, folks)

Wehrmacht long service medals were awarded to

1) active duty members of the Wehrmacht, with final processing halted in 1940 for "last call" on time in the outbreak of the war in 1939 or

2) former members of the Imperial armed forces recalled for MILITARY long service, exchanging the equivalent of their "old army" long service for the "new Wehrmacht" version.

3) This supposed person with the utterly non-German fancy dress is supposed to have been a combatant in World War One

4) but was NOT in continuous military service, having ONLY the 12 and 4, leaving--per 2)

5) a supposed WW1 combatant with a XII Years Service Medal from one of the Imperial Armies or the navy, heard guns fired, but no WW1 combat awards for all four years of the FIRST war:

7) and yet this rear area YOUNG fellow (ex-WW1 noncommissioned or petty officer, since officers did not GET XII medals) was right out front in late middle age in the SECOND war?

OK, such a person COULD have been a career SS member---

8) where are the NSDAP long service awards?

9) because this GERIATRIC SS "careerist" went in full-time well into his 30s and travelled all over WITHOUT any "old guard" non-SS Party service...

and that is not likely at all.

10) The WAR MERIT MEDAL was NEVER given to uniformed members of the Armed Forces. It was for civilian military employees, war effort scrap drive volunteers, and mainly industrial workers in war plants.

11) There is NO "interlude" here for such a "civilian" to have slid a KVM in... while getting the SS Long Service.

12) the reverse shows every characteristic of the all brass hand snipped fraud bars WITHOUT all the danglies, from the loose, thin Crafte Shoppe wrong red felt to the telltale catch:

[attachmentid=32170]

13) Under the Third Reich the East Medal 1941/42 preceded the Hindenburg Cross.

The entire bar is simply ridiculous. Garbage like this started appearing in numerous equally absurd combinations around 2002 or so that I noticed.

[attachmentid=32171]

Obviously all being cranked out by the same Hollywood-Nazis type who has never seen what was actually worn during the period.

This is a laughable Manionesque eCrap fantasy fraud.

[Guest Darrell]

Well .. that about says it all .... too bad he wouldn't pop in here to try and explain it in more details

[Guest Rick Research]

Right. Slipping from Ribbon Bar Expert into Moderational Being:

There will be NO inter-website "squabbling" here.

If whoever the owner of this "treasure" is doesn't want it discussed, this thread will be deleted.

Plain, simple, and FAIR. The ITEM is all that matters.

This will not be used as an excuse for PERSONAL issues tracking mud from there to here.

Clear?

Thank you gentlemen.

[Peter J]

Loud and clear Rick, that sits fine with me. One clearification though, my comments regarding evaluation critera on miniatures wasn't directed solely to "the other forum", but rather a general statement. I stick to this opinion and I hope that it's looked upon as constuctive critisism.

KR

Peter

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes indeed! There is everything wrong and NOTHING right with the combination under discussion.

I would also agree with you that closer views of the miniatures and ribbon eagles would make clear whether they are even real as pieces, never mind as an assembly.

Period miniature medal bars were indeed worn--

and LOOKED like miniature medal bars.

Otherwise miniatures were worn on a lapel chain. Here are a never completed dealer stock miniature medal bar for the most common junior WW1 W?rttemberg NCO-- obviously the retail market was not what this outfitter anticipated--and part of a lapel chain mainly for size comparison:

[attachmentid=32172]

Of course, aside from LUFTWAFFE and KRIEGSMARINE "monkey jacket" formal dress, there was no call for miniature medals to be worn in uniform. The Allgemeine SS also had "waiter" jackets...

and anyone who thinks they can come up with any period photographic evidence of miniatures like the atrocity starting this thread being worn on one are cheerfully invited to spend fruitless decades looking.

I've already spent 40 years in this highly specialized field, looking and looking... at everything out there.

Miniatures were almost always worn in civilian attire. Numerous examples of both miniature medal bars and lapel "bow tie" ribbons with pendant minis can be found in the Imperial subforum here.

Any suggestion that the Titoista bar was a "homemade" civilian wear one-off still founders on the utter impossibility of the combination:

There were rules, There were regulations. The physical limitations of the Space-Time Continuum could not put one person in three different places simultaneously. It does not add up. It cannot be made TO add up.

And ANY combination of awards reveals the real--or fictional--story of its wearer.

[Stogieman]

I can only add one thing.........

I still give it a "remotely possible" rating, despite misgivings of my "Evil Twin"?

[Stogieman]

PS: Please do not cut and paste us over to them..... everyone knows where to find us if they wanted to.

[Guest Darrell]

I still give it a "remotely possible" rating, despite misgivings of my "Evil Twin"?

Wow ... the "Evil Twin" is a trademark?

[PKeating]

There will be NO inter-website "squabbling" here.

If whoever the owner of this "treasure" is doesn't want it discussed, this thread will be deleted.

Plain, simple, and FAIR. The ITEM is all that matters.

This is GMIC, not WAF. The item has been proposed for discussion and it has been discussed in a civilised manner so why delete the thread? That's pretty disrespectful to the people who have taken the trouble to explore possibilities, Rick.

Ground Hog Day...

PK

[Guest Rick Research]

The OWNER of this... thing... has every right to limit discussion of his property/his scans to the place where HE is. We will respect that, should he not wish it discussed here. Out of courtesy to owners and photographers, third party posting of other people's physical and intellectual property without their permission when there is no time-sensitive sales involved is not normally desirable.

That point seems to have been missed, completely, above.

Meanwhile, the PIECE will be discussed and not the PEOPLE--and this will NOT become website-versus-website. Not interested in what goes on elsewhere. Don't care what goes on elsewhere. That was plain enough.

[PKeating]

IP? I don't think that is a problem, Rick. Once something like that is posted on any public or commercial forum, old chap, it can be reproduced on another forum as long as its publication falls within the parameters of "fair usage". In fact, even if it has not previously been published anywhere, "fair usage" applies so there is no need for you to worry about the feelings of the owner of this piece.

PK

Edited March 28, 2006 by PKeating

[Guest Rick Research]

Even when in apparent total disagreement with the owner of this... thing... I still respect HIS rights.

Quite annoyed, I get, when MY items are taken without MY permission, or credit. Fair's fair, however uncommon common courtesy is.

Meanwhile, I thought there was the BEGINNING of a Primer On Bad Bars and sure enough, here it was, waaaay back in the back pages:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3140

[PKeating]

I understand your point entirely. We've had things nicked or lifted or plagiarised and it is annoying! However, I do not think that anyone here has been out of line in the manner in which they have discussed this object. Moreover, the image is in the public domain. If it is a fake or typical of a series of fakes, it is surely a good thing if people are appraised of this so that they do not buy something like this, isn't it? Why would the owner wish to keep it quiet? He will surely be able to get his money back. It is not as if he wishes to hide the fact that it has been condemned as questionable by some people in order to sell it on, is it?