Swainys Boy Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 Hi there, Got a badge here that's been discussed a few times among the experts but no one could throw any light on it's identification. It had been suggested that it might be a British Trinidad Constabulary badge but I'm in doubt about that, it doe's not look anything like the usual police badges anywhere in the World. The chain around the outside suggests some tram corporation. Any ideas? Measures: 65mm wide x 52mm high. Just a little more detail here... http://alan.swain.me.uk/police-odds-ends.htm
Mike McLellan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 With the chain surround, I'm leaning toward something something club. If nobody can identify it with any degree of certainty, I suggest you make up something. The more outlandish, the better! If nobody challenges your assertions, your heirs might find themselves in possession of a national treasure. It's been done before. Remember, with history, whoever writes it the loudest, WINS!
NickLangley Posted September 6, 2016 Posted September 6, 2016 Well, according to this link http://www.guardian.co.tt/lifestyle/2011/08/31/star-david the Trinidad connexion looks dubious. It states that the Trinidad Constabulary was wearing a "Star of David" type badge well before the end of the 19th Century.
Swainys Boy Posted September 6, 2016 Author Posted September 6, 2016 (edited) Thanks for your input, looks like there is to be a long wait for someone to come along, eventually. There may well be another one of these badges out there, no.2? and someone will chime in if & when they see this one. It's funny that over the last few days I had sold a couple of Trinidad badges, Star of David types which is why I could not seem to accept that this 'chain' badge is not from there. Edited September 6, 2016 by Swainys Boy Cropped Picture to make smaller
Ross Mather Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 The chain surround could also point towards having a connection / theme to water. Often, chains / anchors / ropes were incorporated into their insignia. There were a lot of Canal Companies around in the Victorian times, and it was not unusual to have very few or even just the one policeman. My thoughts as a possibility for BTC - Bridgewater and Taunton Canal. Worth researching to see if this company had a policeman or police force. Most will have had police for the protection of cargo and company property. Ross
Polsa999 Posted January 6, 2017 Posted January 6, 2017 I think that Ross may be close to something in his assumption that this is a badge for a canal policeman. If this is the case then there would be some value in the badge, my only reservation is the use of the crown which would be unlikely but not impossible for a canal company to make use of for its policemen.
Ross Mather Posted January 6, 2017 Posted January 6, 2017 There were no rules and regulations as to uniform and insignia in those days. Many Victorian Dock Company police badges have Victorian crowns. See no good reason to believe that Canal Company Police would be any different. Ross
Polsa999 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 I think the rules on the use of the crown emblem was governed by the Lord Chamberlains office even in Victoria's period. Having researched the history of railway, dock and canal police for a number of years it is obvious that some were allowed to place the crown on their helmet plates because of their service to Victoria......others just did it! I have not yet seen a Victoria crown on any canal police cap/helmet badge. Any evidence of this would be interesting. Steve
Dave Wilkinson Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) So on the basis of what you say, despite the fact that there is no evidence of a canal police force using the Crown on their badge, if they wanted to do so they could, even without asking. Personally, I don't follow the premise that some railway police forces were "allowed" to put the Crown on their badge because of service to Victoria (the Queen, not the railway station). It has always been the case that persons who are attested as Constables under an enabling Act of Parliament are, whilst executing the duties of that office, Crown servants, irrespective of who paid their wages. Indeed, the wording of the Oath requires the person being sworn to attest that "I will faithfully serve our Sovereign Lady the Queen in the Office of Constable....". That oath alone makes service to the Crown unquestionable and takes primacy over whether a particular railway company's police regularly stood guard over the Royal train or whatever. The view I take is that it was simply a matter of choice for the individual police force as to whether the Sovereign's Crown was incorporated as part of their insignia. A fair number of the former Borough and County Forces did not utilise "Crowned" badges, nor was there a requirement for them to do so. Having been a member of a non-Home Office police force for some 20 years prior to retirement I can attest to the fact that some of these organisations do get a little, shall we say agitated, about whether they can or can't incorporate the Crown on their badge. Having been privy to written legal advice on the subject, I can confirm that it is a non issue, the basis for which lies in the previous paragraph. As to the badge under discussion, it probably has no connection with a police force at all and in all probability was utilised by a Government department either at home or overseas. Traditionally, a "chain" is used as part of Customs and Excise insignia and I would lean towards the badge being used by a colonial Customs service or similar. E.g. "British Tientsin Customs" Dave. Edited January 17, 2017 by Dave Wilkinson
Polsa999 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 I do not propose that we spend too much time on the point since raised. The history of the railway, dock and canal police is not simple. Until the 20th century there was no primary legislation (BTC Act 1948) providing railway companies with the authority to appoint constables so most were appointed under special constable acts. The Great Western Railway police and the Great Eastern Railway police were granted, by royal prerogative , the right to place a crown on their plates....when the GER amalgamated with the LNER in 1923 that right was removed. It may be a surprise to some that many railway police forces such as the North British Railway and the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway police did not swear their constables in until the Edwardian period and they changed their rules and some forces did not swear constables in until they had served a probationary period. You will find that legally the current BTP officers, despite their public facing duties, are not Crown servants but contracted emplyees of the railway. I think that the matter can rest now.
Dave Wilkinson Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) The matter was decided formally in Fisher v Oldham Corporation 1930. A Constable is an independent servant of the Crown, not the servant of any local authority. Of course there are different views, and differing interpretation of our laws that is why we have a busy court system and seemingly ever wealthy lawyers. Dave. Edited January 18, 2017 by Dave Wilkinson
Dave Wilkinson Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) On 17/01/2017 at 20:44, Polsa999 said: I think the rules on the use of the crown emblem was governed by the Lord Chamberlains office even in Victoria's period. Having researched the history of railway, dock and canal police for a number of years it is obvious that some were allowed to place the crown on their helmet plates because of their service to Victoria......others just did it! I have not yet seen a Victoria crown on any canal police cap/helmet badge. Any evidence of this would be interesting. Steve Apropos the use of a crown on a canal company police badge. It would seem that the Regents Canal Company Police used a crown on their helmet plate, presumably the final version prior to their demise. Dave. Edited January 18, 2017 by Dave Wilkinson
Michael Johnson Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 14 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said: The matter was decided formally in Fisher v Oldham Corporation 1930. A Constable is an independent servant of the Crown, not the servant of any local authority. Of course there are different views, and differing interpretation of our laws that is why we have a busy court system and seemingly ever wealthy lawyers. Dave. [1930] 2 K.B. 364, [1930] All E.R. Rep. 96 (K.B.) - Sorry but three years of Law School and 28 years in legal publishing, you learn always to give the legal citation for a case. Michael
Dave Wilkinson Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 42 minutes ago, Michael Johnson said: [1930] 2 K.B. 364, [1930] All E.R. Rep. 96 (K.B.) - Sorry but three years of Law School and 28 years in legal publishing, you learn always to give the legal citation for a case. Michael Michael, Many thanks for looking this up for us. Much appreciated! Dave.
Ross Mather Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Just to throw this into the mix ;-) I have a large collection of decorated Welsh truncheons. I've uploaded a couple of photos of some of them. The bulbous one 'CANAL' was of the Brecknock & Abergavenny Canal. It has painted details V1R and the monarchs Crown. This to show that the holder (likely a Constable) was acting on the authority of the 'Crown'. Also the orange coloured one to the left.........N.H.C.....Newport Harbour Commision police .... mid Victorian and again.....displaying the monarchs crown. Ross
GreyC Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Very nice, Ross. First time I have seen any. GreyC
Ross Mather Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Thank you. A photo of a few more of them. Ross
GreyC Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Very interesting collection of these symbols of regulatory executive force/power. GreyC
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