Newest ribbon bar, recent aquisition

[MattGibbs]

Ok, founts of knowlege, been asked to post this for opinions.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

[Guest Rick Research]

OK:

First TWO problems are that the NSDAP long services are in reversed order-- should be 25 first, then the 15 as it is, then the 10.

Now zoom in really close on those devices, because the frauds use original silver 15s that are painted to make bronze and gold ones. I can't tell from this.

You should also blacklight this for any telltale electric blue = fake glow from the white areas.

[MattGibbs]

Ok I have tried this image.

Question, with these political awards are they ever seen in the wrong order or is this not possible, I ask because of the story behind it, thats all.

Ok whats the file max size, cos I have tried a detailed pic and it keeps telling me it is too big

Matt

Edited March 29, 2006 by MattGibbs

[MattGibbs]

OK I have tried 7 times now. Rick if you PM me your email I will send you the pic I have, my software obviously can't make it pitifully small enough without it looking blurred or silly.

I can manage one of the back.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Edited March 29, 2006 by MattGibbs

[Guest Rick Research]

Your settings are at issue, since the scan for the whole bar above reads as over 37KB size-- and should be something like 7, at the size it shows. I take it this is one of those 27 times resized Photo Shop camera situations and not just a plain old SCAN IT ONCE The Right Size Epson scanner, eh?

Bad bars often have the precedence wrong. I have never seen a good bar that did-- every Super Nazi knew the Best Stuff went FIRST.

Have you flashed it with a blacklight?

[MattGibbs]

Not having a working scanner would be the issue!

A camera used by all and sundry would be another!

And finally no I have not previously needed a blacklight, collecting metal civil and political badges and tinnies I have not needed one

I guess I may need to remedy that, but we shall see. No idea where to get one in the UK.

The pics I posted of the bar were sent to me when I enquired about it being for sale.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Edited March 29, 2006 by MattGibbs

[MattGibbs]

Whoops! Forgot to add, I am impressed you have never seen a good bar with wrong precedence! I think I need to forget about ribbon bars until I have devoured a couple of hundred books on the subject!

Regards

MG

[Paul R]

I have an original that is out of order...

[MattGibbs]

Incidentally Paul, if thats scanned it is good. My old scanner was scrap, I think I need a new one so any recommendations appreciated! Sawrey for the off topic but its very relevant to me, as I am still learning about ribbons and bars!!

Incidentally I can tell you that from looking in between the stitching and ribbon on the reverse the wings that hold the devices on are definately the same colour as the front, they do not look like just the front has been painted.

Under a strong magnifier the detail on the devices is really good, there does not appear to be detail that has been some how "filled in" with paint, if you see what I mean. Indeed, on the bronze there appears to be a bit of verdigris or something, slightly tarnished on a little part of one of the wings. I know a pic says a thousand words though.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Edited March 29, 2006 by MattGibbs

[Guest Rick Research]

Paul's is a tabby-back--

which means Little Monkey Fingers could have screwed with it (and no, they never seem to need any "reason" for that) at any point in the last 61 years.

I'd be LESS concerned if YOURS had been the individual tabs type, since Wrong Wrong WRONG could thus be explained, but not justified...

however SEWN that way

=

Not In My Collection.

And you really must have a blacklight. It is absolutely essential. When a fraud is done right--which is rarely--that can be the only thing to save you from a VERY expensive mistake.

[Paul R]

Matt Gibbs emailed me the closeups of the ribbon devices as seen below:

[Guest Rick Research]

I just can't tell, that focus and at such an angle.

No matter what, I just cannot accpet in my mind an "error" placing the most prestigious award in the Third Reich's political gift...

dead last.

[MattGibbs]

Well, with a digicam, I cannot focus in much more on macro to make a low enough resolution picture for this site I will have to try and borrow the scanner of a friend, if I can.

I can make great pictures, but not limited in size for this forum, there seems not too much point in the bothering anyway. I didn't realise this was the 3rd Reichs most prestigious political gift.

regards

MG

Edited March 30, 2006 by MattGibbs

[Nick]

Hi Matt

Nice to see you here !

Although I do not operate in the same league as the two twins , I do have more than a passing interest in medal bars and ribbons. What also stands out to me is the poor alignment of the ribbons themselves just look at the EK2 & 25 year ribbon and how it sits on the bar. Not something in itself for major concern but added to the other things just supports further bad vibes. If you can?t get a black light I can send you a small one in the post for loan, if it helps, let me know.

Nick

[webr55]

Just for comparison, here is one of the rare photos of a bar in wear with all three party awards. This is SA-Stabschef Wilhelm Schepmann.

[Guest Rick Research]

Schepmann is a perfect example! Notice the 25 years civil service cross after his NS 25,15, and 10?

He was NOT entitled to it.

That's right--

he was FIRED from his teaching job in the 1920s for being a Nazi loudmouth...

and given this all those years later-- along with full retroactive "pensionable" credit et cetera and so on...

just as if he had continued on at the daily grind of teaching all those years.

THAT is the sort of cheating and "double-dipping" that was routinely done for the "Golden Pheasants" of the Nazi elite--

and no question whatsoever about where he wore HIS Nazi Party 25.

[MattGibbs]

Yes I am glad webr55 posted that neat photo so we can see how it should have been done correctly, thanks I'm sorry but IMHO that doesn't make my bar wrong, it makes the order on it wrong.

I appreciate your opinion Rick [and your PMs - I understand why you can't post this directly on the forum]

Thanks for bringing to my attention the reasons why you think it could be suspect without further evidence. I realise that even if I do blacklight it, [and I am borrowing the kit to do so] you say you would still doubt it. Does this mean every bar like this I come across more or less needs documented proof behind it?

Sorry for more questions but I have also been asked some questions now from others about why if the blacklight checks out and the devices are ok and the construction materials are ok why does it have to be suspect, the guy could just have had it made up wrong. [or gone to a less reputable firm!].

I have now also got the official story from the dealer who aquired this and other pieces that he did split up and sell the items and they are now, sadly, all disbursed to the four winds.

I can also tell you that apart from awards docs etc the recipients private papers went into a historical collection that I am now applying to get access to for information because I am told there is a photo collection.

Without being able to post a good small enough filesized photo of the front of the devices here I see that I cannot reasonably ask for anyones balanced opinion on here. I can tell you that by looking carefully at the back and the front [under magnification] they are at least as good as the ones in the gallery on the WAF site, there is good definition of the eagles wings and feather details on their front.

When I find out some more information I shall add it to this thread, thanks for the PM's of advice about where and how to go about making this kind of research, seeking other evidence etc, this is the kind of useful constructive information that these forums are designed to share so we can all learn and enjoy this hobby. I can now move on to other things in the meantime!

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Edited March 31, 2006 by MattGibbs

[Guest Rick Research]

"Sorry for more questions but I have also been asked some questions now from others about why if the blacklight checks out and the devices are ok and the construction materials are ok why does it have to be suspect, the guy could just have had it made up wrong. [or gone to a less reputable firm!]."

The First Generation, early 1990s, of bad ribbon bars which flooded onto the market were almost entirely ORIGINAL never used ribbon stock, almost always original never used devices...

but baffled by the lack of correct backings, were crudely made of hand snipped hobby sheet metal stock and wrong material backings.

The Second Generation, early 2000s, has been using a treasure trove of original backings--solving THAT fraud problem, with MOSTLY original ribbon stock. But the stocks of ribbons are

a) being exhausted by fraudulent mass production that COULD have outfitted entire Wehrmacht divisions, literally and

b) the fakers just cannot HELP themselves using, incorrectly, the sort of Exotic Ribbon stock that either WAS left over originally (never enough retail demand back then) or that Prize-Driven collectors now want

It is surprising how often something as common as Sudeten Medal ribbon is FAKE-- and a flash o' blacklight over a bar with one or two BAD ribbons and the rest butchered old stock proves that

in a FLASH.

Generation 1 = Outside Good, Inside Bad

Generation 2 = Outside Bad, Inside Good

Generation "2+," if done well = Outside Good, Inside Good BUT STILL BAD.

Made in 2006 out of 1943 parts is still RUBBISH.

MEDAL bars are now being mass produced

"all original parts."

Except for the thread, of course, and the stuffing, of course... FULL size ribbon has long been available new, more so than ribbon bar size. The results are dingy old dirty awards married to minty fresh ribbons-- uneven age, "too much" over the top, BAD combinations... just like ribbon bars.

There WERE ribbon bars without backing cloth...

but more commonly in the Imperial era than under the Third Reich.

FAKES are being caught so often (read "This Week's Fake Ribbon Bars" threads faithfully) that the crooks have now taken

as they have with the UNcommon old MEDAL bar style with flat bottoms (devilishly difficult to get "bow bottoms" RIGHT)

to flooding the market with UNBACKED WW2 era ribbon bars.

All sending alarm flares off--

PARTICULARLY when you are not equipped with the most basic, essential tool of all--

a BLACKLIGHT.

Even I cannot handle ribbon bars any more without one.

And in a day when utter rubbish is being constructed entirely out of ORIGINAL parts, it is precisely the WRONGNESS of combinations that make the Bad Bars tell their TRUE stories.

For what my experience is worth.

I can't and won't attempt to argue somebody talking themselves into BELIEVING something is "good" that is most likely, all the above considered, and statistical odds for/against bad out of it

but when you are swimming among ribbon bar sharks without the protection of a blacklight

you are GOING to get bitten.

Badly.

Often.

Expensively.

I don't play Russian roulette with a revolver with 5 out of 6 cylinders loaded. Those aren't good odds.

[MattGibbs]

Rick

Thus I shall have to get myself one of these blacklight gadgets then huh? I guess collecting these things is really only for going to shows so you can actually check them out in the hand then. How do people who cannot do this collect then?

I bow to your experience and knowlege of the sheer amount of fakes out there. I assume no one will have a problem if I sent this bar back to the dealer and pointed at this thread for all that is apparently wrong with it..???

One thing is though , suddenly you come across like you don't think I want to learn and you also come across like I need to be more humble in my respect for your knowlege, or is that just the way things happen to come across online because of the obviously impersonal nature of the internet?

Anyone care to suggest alternative trusted dealers to patronise? Please list a few here.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

[TerryG]

Whilst on the subject of NSDAP ribbons, seems that these guys are finding plenty. Maybe they have a time machine... http://www.regimentals.co.uk/shop/shop.php (check out the few pages before and/or after this one also)

[TerryG]

And finally no I have not previously needed a blacklight, collecting metal civil and political badges and tinnies I have not needed one

I guess I may need to remedy that, but we shall see. No idea where to get one in the UK.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Try Maplin. I got mine there. It was described as a tool to check out fake currency. I guess other UK shops will have them also.

[kunsho]

Here the ribbon- and the medal bar of a mayor of a small city in Bavaria. Party member 57215 (according to the numbered party badge). I have received his medals from his daughter. An untouched ensemble. Recognize that first comes the 10 and then 15... looks like that this practice is more usual than the "officially correct way".

...and now ? :-)

Matthias

[MattGibbs]

Matthias;

Thanks for pointing this out, and posting your photos. I have also seen another 2 place bar that was mounted like this, in a photo somewhere online. It was black and white but the differences in shading of the crosses made it look like this.

I know too, before anyone else decided to chip in that there are many bars in photos that are done the "correct" way, so I don't know this is any more or less likely to be found one way around or another.

I'm viewing this that evidence suggests sometimes things were not done quite regulation. Mind you, although the regs were clear I suppose it wasn't so clear in peoples heads. All the mixtures of awards in order recieved, 3rd reich before this, Imperial before that, chuck the important but not "nazi" awards to the back of the queue!

Some of these things are great pointers to the age of things and also when things were constructed, but if the maker of the ribbons was a confused fellow it doesn't make life easy for us 60,70,80 years later! I like the sound of your grouping though, I have only a small number of party books. I shall always regret just missing a nice small bar, with 1923 NSDAP Gau badge, photos, Gold Party Badge and owners party book to SA member, grrr!

Regards

Matt Gibbs

[kunsho]

...although the regs were clear I suppose it wasn't so clear in peoples heads. All the mixtures of awards in order recieved, 3rd reich before this, Imperial before that...

..hhmm, I do not believe that this is a mistake of an overcharged ribbon bar sewer. This was their (the bar sewers) business and the bars had to be correct (think about the strict military regulations of this time to this topic)...from the principle I agree here completely with Rick...but the pictures shows the difference...

Best Regards

Matthias

[MattGibbs]

Matthias;

Indeed, it may not be the mistake of a ribbon bar maker/tailor etc. I am agreeing with you, I believe the regulations were clear.

As you say this was someones buisness and they had to do things right. Strict regulations may have played a part in it. There was a right way to do things. But as we see from many points of view and in many other bars the regulations were not always adhered to. This is true especially with inter-war era when some peoples individual choice was expressed, the regulations were then tightened down n the 3rd Reich era, but still these anomolies happen.

So, why do these bars exist? Is it because the owner requested it this way, for surely the man who had a buisness to protect would have pointed it out to the customer that it was not the "right" way? I suppose "who knows". It could be one of many things. Mind you - do they not say the customer is always right. Is a lowly shopkeeper going to argue with the local Mayor..? How about the local Kreisleiter?

All part of the fun of research I suppose.

I love the blue enamel on your medal bar!

Best wishes

Matt Gibbs