Which nationality, please?

[The Prussian]

Hello!

This photo shows the officers of Inf.Rgt.87 from 1909.

The reverse is written with the names of the officers. N°18 is marked as "Japaner" (Japanese).

Is it really a japanese?  I´m not sure because of the cap. Did they have a cockade and such a star like this?

Thanks a lot!

Edited April 8, 2018 by The Prussian

[Bayern]

The Prussian : The officer is probably Argentinian . the Argentinian Army adopted beginning in 1909 German style uniforms including the grey greatcoat with blue collar .the peaked cap was blue with the band in arm of service colour and carried on the top the white and sky blue cockade and on the band the emblem of the unit . the four point pip was the emblem of the War Ministery if gold and of the General Staff if silver. the rank was carried on the shoulders as shoulder tabs ,

PS . the officers cockade was of 25 mm of diameter and made of a string of celluloid beads white and sky blue ,rolled to form a circle.of course the troop cockade was a simpler one of stamped enamelled tin 

[The Prussian]

Hello!

That´s interesting!!!! Thanks a lot for that info! It´s very hard to find infos about overseas armies of that period!

Because of the four point pip I think it´s silver (General Staff). It was not unusually, that staff officers visited european armies.

http://www.militariarg.com/

 

[Bayern]

Hello : Not only Staff officers , and not only as visitors , the Argentinian Army of the first four decades of the 20th Century, send many officers in service commision to the Imperial German Army , the Reichswehr and lately the Wehrmacht Heer. these officers were incorporated into a German Regiment during a year or more in some case, and served as regular German officers. gaining expertise . they weared Argentine uniforms or at least for photos . I think that on duty at least they wore German ones

[The Prussian]

Hello!

An interesting point!

I know there were several turkish officers in the german army. They also were mentined in the ranklists. So an argentine officer might be mentioned too?

In the ranklist I couldn´t find any in IR87.

Here is a good article:

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/argentina/army-history-4.htm

Edited April 10, 2018 by The Prussian

[Bayern]

Hello : In that case , the presumptive Argentinian officer must had been a visitor .

[The Prussian]

Hello!

That´s posiible.

And don´t forget that Germany sold a few hundered thousand rifles to south American in these years.

[The Prussian]

Here is an interesting wiki page:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentinisch-Deutsche_Militärkooperation

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator :

Training of Argentine officers in Germany

Conversely, between 1902 and the outbreak of World War I - military attachés, army doctors and young cadets included - 196 officers came to Germany. They were detached to various German regiments and units, including the Prussian War Academy, the Military Academy, shooting ranges and maneuvers. A high proportion of the officers sent to Germany (59 of the 196) later rose to general rank.Two became chiefs of staff, one, José Félix Uriburu, Argentine president.

 

Arms deliveries from France and the German Reich

Brazil, Peru and Uruguay had French military missions and bought their weapons in France.

Argentina, Chile and Ecuador had arms supply contracts with German arms manufacturers until 1928 and recruited military advisers in Berlin. Argentina bought from 1864 to 1913:

    125,000 rifles and carbines model 1889, 236,000 model 1891 and 157,000 model 1909 at Mauser
    1,433 cannons at Krupp
    to them ammunition, explosives, detonators, shells, propellants, bayonets, binoculars, etc.

Argentina increased its arms purchases when the Beagle Canal and the Beagle conflict began soon after the border treaty of 1881 with Chile was signed. In the 1890s, the armament of the Argentine army was purchased almost exclusively from German manufacturers.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by The Prussian

[Bayern]

 Hello : The German influence on South American Armies was great, inclusive in countries like Peru , Brazil and Uruguay .traditionally linked to the French Military . The first Nation to call a German Mission was Chili in 1885 . about the armament ,German Mausers were ubicuous .

[ixhs]

i don`t think, that the No. 18 is a Japanese one.

[The Prussian]

No, ut´s just proofed. He is argentinian.

[ixhs]

ah, OK.

[Bayern]

Hello Gentlemen  I just remembered a Argentinian Army officer . certain Lt Colonel Enrique Rostagno who in the year 1904 was commisioned as observer in the Imperial Russian Army HQ then fighting with Japan . perhaps another officer was commisioned in the Imperial Japanese Army at the same time and later transferred to Germany .and is not impossible that he received the surname the Japaner . I promise to search about the subject

[The Prussian]

Hello!

That´s a very interesting idea! But is that young officer a Lt.Col.?

[ixhs]

Bayern:

You have a big knowledge about the German Army. Did you study German history ?

I have a pic with a marine guy from Siam. It was a prince who was sent to Germany for military education.

 

 

[Bayern]

 

Hello!

That´s a very interesting idea! But is that young officer a Lt.Col.?

Hello ! Sadly its not very clear what kind of shoulder strap carries the officer . if they were of a captain ,three gold laces 7mm wide each or that of a Lt Cnel ,a rectangle of black cloth edged with 5mm wide gold lace and with two five pointed gilded stars on it

 

Bayern:

You have a big knowledge about the German Army. Did you study German history ?

I have a pic with a marine guy from Siam. It was a prince who was sent to Germany for military education.

 

 

Hello , My knowledge of the German Army is not so big . And yes ,German History is my favourite theme of study.

[The Prussian]

You´re right,. The rank is invisible. But in peace-time this man probably was a subaltern, not a staff-officer.

[Bayern]

Yes , Rostagno in 1909 was 42 years old. perhaps the apparent subaltern was a non identified aide or adjoint to a senior officer 

[The Prussian]

Hello!

Sory for my late answer. I must have missed your last entry.

Could he be 42? Are you able to get an argentinian ranklist of 1908/09?

I checked a lot of sources, but I couldn´t find any lists with officers who served in Germany.

I know, in 1909 there were 34 who served in Germany

http://bibliotecadigital.uca.edu.ar/repositorio/revistas/oficiales-ejercito-argentino-alemania.pdf

[webr55]

I am not convinced this is not a Japanese officer, just judging from the blurred cockade, and if there is period writing to the contrary.  

See my thread about a future Japanese General (with a similar mustache) who stayed in Berlin for two years:

 

 

[Bayern]

Hello , Its not only the cockade , on the band of the peaked cap the officer wears the four pointed star of the Argentinian Army General Staff .

Japanese Army never used cockades on capbands or kepis , used the five pointed star or the chrysantemum 

[The Prussian]

Bayern.

Do you know, where I can infos about argentinian soldiers, served in germany in that period?

[03fahnen]

Here is a sheet of the early twentieth century

[The Prussian]

Óla!

Muchas gracias!

But my man wears a coat, so we can´t see his regular uniform.

From which book is the plate taken, please?

[Bayern]

The Prussian , The plate is from Enciclopedia Espasa Calpe. and the uniforms depicted are the ones of the regulations of 1904. these uniforms were changed between 1911 and 1913 to a Prussian style . the greatcoat for officers was modified in 1910 to a entirely Prussian model . Grey with blue collar piped in arm of service colour. Believe me the Japaner is a Argentinian