Soviet Medal bar missing the medals

[Hauptmann]

Okay... here's one I've been wondering about. Been trying to get those individual medals I don't already have in order to "rebuild" these. But want to make sure they "make sense" and are not some crazy put together.

I got all three on Ebay for $13.09 plus shipping of $6.50 priority mail (thought that was a bit high for something this light but got them so cheap what the hey?) and figured taken individually, based on what I see them for on some retail dealers sites, I saved $70 some odd over what it would have cost me buying the bars and ribbons separately.

I'd originally thought of just reusing the bars to better display some of my pieces but then when I got them I figured what they hey, I have some of them and most are super cheap so why not just rebuild the bars.

Only problem ones will be the two Red Banners as those are gonna cost a bundle I'm sure. Would almost like to consider replacing those with something cheaper. I wondered, would two Valor medals work? As it is even if they do I'll have to buy two Valors and two Combats for it so it's still gonna run a bit but nowhere near even one Red Banner.

Anyhow as always opinions welcome.

Thanks,

Dan

[paddywhack]

only problem it that youl have to destroy some right medals to put it back right! grand for the realy realy un numbered stuff but for the red banners etc its kinda bad!!!!

Edited April 12, 2006 by paddywhack

[Hauptmann]

only problem it that youl have to destroy some right medals to put it back right! grand for the realy realy un numbered stuff but for the red banners etc its kinda bad!!!!

Not quite sure what you mean by "destroy" but as far as those four that would be numbered... if nothing else for display purposes I could just put on two Valors and two Combats that were unnumbered... at least I'd think so.

But again I'm open to suggestions on those first four on the nine medal bar. Anything that would save me money, etc. as if it's only a case of changing out those ribbons and putting on four unnumbered medals "that would make sense" in that order then I'd have no problem with it.

I've got all the common stuff I didn't have on the way and should probably be here by tomorrow. That will finish both of the other bars and only leave the first four places on the nine bar.

Got to run for now as I got called in for a bit but hope to be back soon.

Thanks,

Dan

[Paul R]

Not quite sure what you mean by "destroy" but as far as those four that would be numbered... if nothing else for display purposes I could just put on two Valors and two Combats that were unnumbered... at least I'd think so.

But again I'm open to suggestions on those first four on the nine medal bar. Anything that would save me money, etc. as if it's only a case of changing out those ribbons and putting on four unnumbered medals "that would make sense" in that order then I'd have no problem with it.

I've got all the common stuff I didn't have on the way and should probably be here by tomorrow. That will finish both of the other bars and only leave the first four places on the nine bar.

Got to run for now as I got called in for a bit but hope to be back soon.

Thanks,

Dan

Hi Dan!

Welcome to the forum.

It is a noble idea to try and restore these bars, yet there might not not be too many people here who would encourage disassembling an original medal from a suspension to do so... whether it is a common medal/order or not. A lot of people would view it as destroying a real form of history to create something else(by me anyway). I am sure that if you looked on ebay for long enough, you will be able to find the medals you need being sold without the suspension for a very very inexpensive price.

Just my two cents

Warm regards

Paul

[Ed_Haynes]

As others have said, since a significant number of these medals would have been numbered, why create yet another totally fraudulent illegitimate "group"? For what earthly reason???

In the (unlikely?) event these ribbon sets are legitimate (there are many causes for concern), why defraud others (or yourself) by faking "groups"??

Edited April 13, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Paul R]

As others have said, since a significant number of these medals would have been numbered, why create yet another totally fraudulent illegitimate "group"? For what earthly reason???

In the (unlikely?) event these ribbon sets are legitimate (there are many causes for concern), why defraud others (or yourself) by faking "groups"??

Agreed...

I came back to state that the combinations are unlikely(except for the middle one)...even impossible in my opinion. Rick(either one) could get into more detail in a more definative and concise manner than I... so I will leave it to them.

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Just got back in from work. Whew! Lets just say I'm happier to be here again!

So, from what I'm here from all here (thanks everyone! ) I'm thinking it's best to not put it back the "way it supposedly" should have been. So is it better then to just stick it in the spares drawer "just in case" the parts are needed for a repair of a legit bar, etc?

Course I knew I should have checked with ya'll before I jumped in. Feel like a bit of an idiot now... a bit poorer as far as some of the medals I've bought, which thankfully haven't cost me a lot. I figure I've now got two sets of the Irreproachable Service medals, one set boxed and the other in a riker (had those already) plus a blank doc for one of those, as well as some of the anniversary medals, which it probably doesn't hurt to have extra's for anyhow.

Was never my intention to make a "fake" or "fraudulent" group(s)... just thought it would be good to "restore" what I thought had already been. Of course I had no idea why anyone would want to take the individual medals from these bars. Was just stupid... should have asked.

I'll just take it in stride... use it as a learning experience and move on.

Many thanks.

Dan

[Guest Rick Research]

Actually, all three bars are parts fakes, but that is not to say that all the PARTS are not original and certainly worth way more than you paid. It would certainly be OK to "fool around" with the plethora of dirt common and never going to be valuable unnumbered items to make a display group for a parade dress uniform. I doubt there will ever be a shortage of single mounted 1978 armed forces jubilee medals and so on!

The big bar MIGHT have been original, for a very well decorated WW2 "short time" veteran out of the military (non-career) before 1948, and "as living" in 1968. But TWO Red Banners and two MMMs seem rather unusual for a 1941-45 war's duration type veteran. Not impossible, just unlikely.

The four bar is a fraud-- jumps from Victory Over Germany to a 1958 Jubilee... with no 1948 Jubilee. Still, this is the sot of parts bar that could easily be made into a 1960s-70s CORRECT LOOKING display for a junior officer's dress tunic display as something like a 1965, 1968, and 15 and 10 years service medals.

(This is precisely why I collect SERVICE/duty uniforms and not parade dress-- it is harder to find CORRECT period dress medal bars than the tunics, especially for senior officers.)

The last bar has a 1970 Lenin Jubilee ribbon on medal bar mounting-- something I have only seen post-collapse, and on fake bars. Maybe (?) current Republic regulations allow for that BUT there is no 1965 Jubilee medal on here-- which means this too is a parts bar: Victory Over Germany, 1965, 1975, 1985, 1995, 1968, 1978, 1988 and wherever the 1996 Zhukov Centenary falls into precedence.

So in my opinion none of these bars would be a "loss" for doing anything you want with THEM. I agree that I would not place numbered awards on a made up bar, but purely for display, you could use the big bar for say the Victory and jubilee medals from 1945 on and have a correct looking bar with no loss of individual history.

[Hauptmann]

Actually, all three bars are parts fakes, but that is not to say that all the PARTS are not original and certainly worth way more than you paid. It would certainly be OK to "fool around" with the plethora of dirt common and never going to be valuable unnumbered items to make a display group for a parade dress uniform. I doubt there will ever be a shortage of single mounted 1978 armed forces jubilee medals and so on!

Snip!

So in my opinion none of these bars would be a "loss" for doing anything you want with THEM. I agree that I would not place numbered awards on a made up bar, but purely for display, you could use the big bar for say the Victory and jubilee medals from 1945 on and have a correct looking bar with no loss of individual history.

Hi Rick,

Again thanks for taking the time to fill me in on all this. I'd have never imaged these three little bars would have garnered so much attention, good or bad.

And see, especially after reading so many of the Soviet award posts on here I've been overly concerned about precedence and what would be right where if I did this. Even if I had done what I originally wanted, and what you are, I believe, suggesting would be okay, here and use them for display of the common stuff, the ann. medals and such.

But even there I'd want to make sure I put together something that "made sense".

And yet, what Paul said makes me shudder too:

"It is a noble idea to try and restore these bars, yet there might not not be too many people here who would encourage disassembling an original medal from a suspension to do so... whether it is a common medal/order or not. A lot of people would view it as destroying a real form of history to create something else(by me anyway)."

I mean, I never felt it would hurt to simply remove the rings and medals, keeping each with it's pair and putting them on the new bars... at least for the common unnumbered stuff. I'd keep the original single mounts with their ribbons intact and would leave something with them, in case God forbid anything happened to me so that my family would know what I did and that it could all be passed along intact with those instructions/notes to them or anyone they might sell them too.

I honestly would "never" do anything even approaching dishonesty, fraud, etc., and of course that was never my intent and I'm sure that's not what anyone meant. To me it was just a way to display a bunch of the common medals and of course restoring what I took to be good ones back to their former glory.

And yes, the "numbered" Orders gave me a problem as well, one due to the cost of the RB's but also that I'd almost have to get unnumbered versions of the medals and probably versions of the RB's where the owner is not known and the numbers had originally been filed off or otherwise removed to hide the original owners identity. Would take me longer and be harder, although perhaps a bit less expensive if my guess that such RB's would be a bit cheaper, but would be much better than doing it with numbered ones that obviously did not belong in such a group.

But if they just plain don't make sense the way they are then I wouldn't want to do it.

But if I understand you correctly, it would be considered "okay" for display purposes to put, say, my anniversary medals all in a row like that on the big bar, etc. for display in my riker mount? If so then it would definitely serve a purpose, have made it worthwhile for me to get the bars and at least they'd not languish in a parts drawer or something.

Again, just want to make sure I "do the right thing" and "don't destroy any history".

It's like another group I posted that I got from Alexei M. waaaaaaay back when. It's not mounted... it's a 20th victory, 40th victory (military version) and 50th victory along with a Chernobyl medal. I've always wondered about why he would not have also gotten the 30th victory as that would seem more sensible to me... perhaps his grandkids couldn't find that one to sell as that's where Alexei said he'd gotten them. I also wish I had a picture of him, especially wearing at least some if not all of the awards as that of course always brings such things closer to home. But sadly it's all I got along with his award books.

And even then, even though I think they'd look better on a bar, and if he was entitled, to add the 30th albeit with a note attached stating that it was not original to the group, I didn't want to do it as the way I got them is the way Alexei got them from the grandkids and presumeably the way the old gent had them himself. And I would not want to do anything to dishonor the memory of this obviously brave individual who fought the nuclear hell of Chernobyl.

Again it's always been a temptation to "make it look better"... even down to one of the ribbons that is soiled... but again, it's how I got them right down the chain so was loath to change anything. I simply keep them together with the info on him and that's it.

Just a confusing, frustrating situation all around. As I know there are extreme purists, there are those who defraud and then there are a ton of other shades of those two extreme colors in between.

More to ponder...

Thanks,

Dan

[Paul R]

Hi Dan,

It was not my intention to suggest that you would do anything dishonest. Do dont strike me as that type of person. I am just stating my opinion in regards to collecting. I like to preserve things the way they are. You are correct when you mention "shades" of collectors. I am more on the "purist" side.

Regards

Paul

[Hauptmann]

Hi Dan,

It was not my intention to suggest that you would do anything dishonest. Do dont strike me as that type of person. I am just stating my opinion in regards to collecting. I like to preserve things the way they are. You are correct when you mention "shades" of collectors. I am more on the "purist" side.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul,

Oh, as I said I know that no one intended it that way. Believe me, coming from the trenches of TR and Imperial German I know the frustrations all too well.

See, in some things, like that small Chernobyl group I tend more towards the "purist" way. In others... like my getting the occassional copy of an item that is too costly for my budget or simply impossible for me to ever obtain, and doing it by buying it at an extremely reasonable price, as a copy for a space filler representative example I don't see any harm. And I make sure they are labeled as such and both my wife and son have been brought along to know that I do not want these put back out, if at all, as anything other than exactly what they are... no more, no less. I'd rather see them buried with me... hey, now there's a thought! I could indeed take it with me!

But I'm totally against pirates out to defraud in any way, shape or form. And of course the best defense against that is to join terrific groups like this, study every reference possible, beg, borrow or whatever, see every legit and even every fake example possible and learn the difference and just use common sense in ones everyday dealings, be it on Ebay or at a shop or show or whatever. It's also important for newbies not to get star struck like kids in a candy shop and think "I'll never find one of these things again... gotta buy it now." and then find out they overspent on one of the most common things to come down the road that year.

They also have to learn not to buy into stories... "Oh my great grandfather brought it back from the war where he was the guy to capture the Kaiser's dog." or whatever other whoey is being spouted out by a seller.

I've read this same reasoning spelled out in I can't count how many references. Know who you're dealing with, etc, etc, over and over again. Sadly, some folks just don't listen. Sigh.

But no, everything is cool and I took it all in the right way.

Again I'd love to do something with these bars... either as suggested put on all the Anniversary medals or something... but something so I can display them in a better way. But I'm not going to jump on any one thing without thinking it through and listening to any and all advice.

Now, I am in conversation with someone... who suggested something so thought I'd throw it out there.

Here's his quote:

"The fact that one of jubilee medal ribbons is missing does not mean that the bar is a restrike. Many war veterans got in

jail after the war (actually thousands of them) and no wonder some of them missed 1948 awarding. Your forum counterpart

lives in a perfect world and does not accept any exclusions from the rule. Lenin jubilee medal on a regular five sided bar

was not that uncommon when it was hanging on a long bar. WWII veterans who left the army after the war were still

receiving anniversary medals and could wear them any way they wanted and mounted their Lenins next to miliary and

anniversary medals. Only men on active duty were subject to guidelines regulating wear of their awards."

I've also invited him to come register and join us and put forth his views and see what happens. We're all here to learn from one another and if he has a valid point then he should have the opportunity to share it. If it's incorrect for whatever reason then he should by the same token come and learn why.

No idea if he'll come or not but I do hope he will.

Anyhow I'd love to hear opinions on his comments as stated above. It's just like my Chernobyl group... would that be a possible explanation for him not receiving the 30th Ann. medal?

In any event looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say. Either way, I've got to say this set of three bars has been worth it just to have such a good exchange of thoughts, ideas and opinions and that my friends is always good!

Thanks!

Dan

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Well, I just got a pleasant surprise to come out of my original attempt (now laid aside) to reconstruct these medal bars.

I'd ordered all the common medals that I did not already have for like $3.50 each. And yes, that was after watching Ebay for several weeks hoping for some without their ribbon mounts,etc. Only ones like that I saw were in the Ukraine and I'm still a bit skittish about ordering from over there unless it's someone highly recommended to me by those I trust.

Anyhow there was a mixup in the order and instead of sending me the 40 years Soviet armed forces I got two 30 years anniversary GPW. When I realized the mistake I informed the dealer who offered an immediate and full refund including the shipping or the same amount as credit on any of his other stock I was intro'd in.

And I've dealt with him before so knew this would be the case.

Well, was getting ready to pack them up and take them over to the post office today when I actually took a good look at them. Turns out I'd "forgotten" this was one that has different varieties. Three types I know of according to Byrne's Soviet medals book... one for military, one for civil and one for foreigner's. I checked the one I already had and sure enough it's a military issue.

However, from the two I received in the shipment one was military and one civil!

Needless to say I'm thrilled and have written and said I've decided to keep one and send the other back. And I've no idea if this is a harder to find piece or more valuable or what but either way I could not be happier!

So now I have two of the three types on that one as well as two of the three on the Lenin Centennial medal. Now all I need are the foreign awards as well as the several types of the long service medals set... along with the umpteen others I need to finish out the entire set. More mountains to climb... but hey, I like climbing!

Oh, I'll be happy to do up pics if anyone would like to see but didn't know if there's be enough interest.

Anyhow just wanted to share my good news! So I feel like this was not in vain or a total disaster after all.

Thanks,

Dan