Interesting Medal Group

[Luftmensch]

I picked up this great photo of a Major in the Luftwaffe who evidently was busy in the Weltkrieg!

I know you guys could probably ID the medals on the bar blindfolded while fending off Ninjas with a pair of dull chopsticks. But what about the group of four below the bar? Any guesses?

Employees and family of the corporation, their subsidiaries and affiliates cannot enter this competition and neither can STOGIEMAN nor ANDREAS!

[Les]

Hmm....

The EKI and Beobachter badges are pretty obvious. That thingie hiding under his armpit kinda looks like a Zepp badge, and the big round one looks to be an (unofficial) airships association medal. Either that or he's got a miniature surfboard tucked under his arm after trying to long-distance surf "La Manche" on his way to England.

Rickie oughta be able to determine the id on this guy from 2000 meters at the dead of night, with one flick of his magic decorder ring.

I don't see any "post Hindendburg" medals indicating WWII service (for instance no 1939 bars, no KvK, Flower-wars medals, etc). This guys age, plus the fact he's in uniform suggests he was a reserve officer during early WWII probably holding down a desk somewhere. Anything later than 1943 and a recall to duty that late he'd have had 'something" from the government d'jour in Berlin. The tunic pattern also suggests pre-war or early in the war.

Nice photo there fella.....

Les

Edited April 15, 2006 by Les

[Claudio]

That's an easy one; Niemann just sold his medal bar a couple of weeks ago.

It's Hauptmann Erich Linnarz, commander of the Zeppelin LZ-38, who went on the first air-raid on London. His group has been already discussed on this very forum (see thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7005&hl=linnarz ).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Luftmensch]

Mr. Chairman, I move to add Les to the list of prohibited players and strike those last comments!

But then a guy who's indoors on a day like this looking at medals is pretty hardcore and deserves some kudos.

The tricky one is opposite the Zep badge, ay 9 o'clock.

Here it is in full size. Look familiar?

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, I was just looking for that thread and Claudio beat me to it. Amazing how people don't read even our own forum widely.

Edited April 15, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Luftmensch]

Mr. Chairman, I move to add Les to the list of prohibited players and strike those last comments!

But then a guy who's indoors on a day like this looking at medals is pretty hardcore and deserves some kudos.

The tricky one is opposite the Zep badge, at 9 o'clock.

Here it is in full size. Look familiar?

[Luftmensch]

Ed, amazing how some people are so hair-trigger that they respond before they know where the thread is going! The old thread omitted something that might be significant, because only Detlev at that point could examine the photo up close.

Unlike an Allied bar this group is unnamed and unattributed in any documentary sense, unless the family surrenders paperwork. But the insignificant little medal links the officer in the photo to the first London raid. The fullsized plaque was given out to every crewmember on LZ 38. I have never seen the smaller size before, or in photos sewn in this fashion on a Luftwaffe tunic.

That is the point of this post. A postscript if you will.

Not so easy, Claudio. Detlev did not know what it was. It will make the group easier to sell next time!

Edited April 15, 2006 by Luftmensch

[medalnet]

Most amazing. I am glad you got this historial important group in the end. Edited April 16, 2006 by medalnet

[Claudio]

Not so easy, Claudio. Detlev did not know what it was.

Hi Les,

I meant easy since somebody (you?) did already the research on this group and I was lucky enough to have seen the same the pics of Detlev's sale. After Detlev knew whose bar was, I guess he speculated on that to make some extra bucks... That's good for him, since he's making his living out of it; he's after all a dealer! As from a collector point of view, it would have been better or nicer if the previous owner had sold this group straight to a collector (like me for instance )... for less!

I won't forget easely such a group, also in ten years or more... don't worry!

I have got now quite a nice archive of images of nice medal bars... named and unnamed once!

Take it easy,

Claudio

[Luftmensch]

Hi, Claudio

I reread the earlier thread about whether the price was too high or not.

Not wishing to single you out! I quote your comment because a lot of people collecting on the German side do think this way....

No, Stogie, it didn't escape me that Linnarz airship (Zeppelin) was the first to bomb London (not England). Still to me the price was a bit to much. Niemann asked at least double the market price of such medal bar for this nevertheless very interesting story. Not bad. That is what I call maximizing the profit, like the auction houses in the last 10 years.

The more the collectors and history enthusiasts are ready and willing to pay, the more the prices will increase.... like a bit collecting VCs, PlM or RKs... now it's time for well researched groups or medal bars!

I think you answered your own question in the second graph. Most German collectibles are unnamed and bought and sold like commodities. Those who collect Allied groups know an ace commands $20,000 +++. The "history" rightly commands a premium. German medals are AMAZINGLY undervalued by comparison. Before that changes, a mental adjustment will be necessary to realize that an attributable story is not just a "story".

With tighter paperwork this could be consigned to a Spink in London and already make profit. Stogie was absolutely right about this being undervalued.

Rgds

John

Edited April 15, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Stogieman]

Most amazing. I am glad to got this historial important group in the end.

OK, I'm confused......... Does Luftmensch have this group or does Andreas????????

[Luftmensch]

OK, I'm confused......... Does Luftmensch have this group or does Andreas????????

Naaaaaaah....I picked up these same medals at "market value" and had `em mounted.....anyone want a Zep group cheap, you supply the story?

[Stogieman]

Hmmmm, story time eh? Well... I have some prime ocean-front real estate in Utah I can give you a deal on?!

[Stogieman]

But Seriously. In the past 8 years I have watched aviation items come and go, badges, medals, etc...... most to unknown pilots & observers and the occasional known, but not real significant named group.

This group is the most significant aviation momento I have seen in that entire time.... the history here is fantastic. Closest I could get was a foto album that belonged to a participant in the first of the bomber raids in heavy bombers......

[Luftmensch]

Hmmmm, story time eh? Well... I have some prime ocean-front real estate in Utah I can give you a deal on?!

Sounds like a good investment once the sea level stops rising...but I'll pass. I'm tapped out on medals with stories this month!

Rgds

John

[Stogieman]

John, I can only imagine....... you'll have to open that Aviation Museum soon so you can write off the expenditures!

[medalnet]

OK, I'm confused......... Does Luftmensch have this group or does Andreas????????

Oops, typo I typed "to" instead of "you", sorry.

[Daniel Murphy]

Luftmensch,

Heres the next part of the story. The LZ 38 raided London on May 31, 1915. Isn't that the date on your Thor ehrenbecher? Nevermind, I just found the thread and it belonged to Volkmann

Dan Murphy

Edited April 16, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Luftmensch]

Luftmensch,

Heres the next part of the story. The LZ 38 raided London on May 31, 1915. Isn't that the date on your Thor ehrenbecher? Nevermind, I just found the thread and it belonged to Volkmann

Dan Murphy

Exactly! And Volkmann was given the big iron plaque, without which I couldn't have d e f i n i t i v e l y identified the little iron medal on Linnarz. Up to that point, where was the actual proof? Which I think is what people feel deep down when they decide to pay less for German ace groups than for British, or American aces. And then, because these things are unnamed, no one can be sure that, say, a PLM hasn't been married to an Urkunde with Christiansen's name on it. So they pay more for the document than the PLM itself!

Everybody knows what Linnarz's group cost. How about the medals to the man who shot down LZ 37.....

Went at auction inn the 90s for I believe (correct me someone) in excess of 100,000 pounds.

THAT'S QUITE A DIFFERENCE IN VALUE!

(I suspect also if Linnarz had been in the Navy the Kaiser might have given him a PLM for his feat rather then the House Order.)

Warneford wore his VC for a few days, and then while taking off from Paris fresh from his Legion of Honour ceremony he crashed and died. I remember the French decoration was twisted and broken in the catalog photo where they had prised it out of his ribs.

http://www.devon24.co.uk/flatfiles/history/veday.aspx

[Guest Rick Research]

"And then, because these things are unnamed, no one can be sure that, say, a PLM hasn't been married to an Urkunde..."

that is certainly true of LOOSE pieces, but NOT of original mounted medal bars and ribbon bars, where an anonymous combination can and is often identifiable without any attribution whatsoever. This section, research subforum etc abound with such examples which are verifiable from period sources. (There is, of course, nothing better than "it" being worn by the recipient in a period photo!!! )

What I like best about Linnarz's medal bar is that the cheap sonofagun just slid that WW2 desk job KVK2X in there from the front end. From the Hohenzollern back everything is exactly as shown in the photo-- the drapes of all the ribbons undisturbed.

He did not, apparently, make much of an impression directly for that raid, at least as far as his awards went. My late friend Neal O'Connor had a curious habit of inexplicably completely ignoring airship personnel in all of his WW1 aviation books, so the full range of awards there I don't have Roll dates for

but Linnarz's HHO3X was gazetted in the Milit?r-Wochenblatt of 16 May 1916-- a YEAR later. His BZ3bXmE was awarded 2 June 1916.

Unlike the press celebrity sea raiders or Sanke collectible cult darling fighter pilots who amassed awards by the fistful for one deed, "on points," or just the publicity of the royal bestowers wanting to hang out with some hero of the moment, Linnarz worked hard and at great risk for that rack!

[Luftmensch]

Great observations, Rick, as usual. A few reactions, in reverse order...

On balance, I think you're quite right that the Zeppelin commanders weren't A-rated celebrities. Maybe if they had those flashy Zep badges sooner it would've made them more conspicuous. Buttlar talks about pulling birds in bars, but I don't think that was down to any particular magnetism other than exuded by an officer's tunic. Zeppelin raids were front-page news around the world, and I still think you will find Wilhelm was more generous with his Navy Zepp aces. In fact, as I talk about in the Thor Becher thread, if there was hot competition between army and navy to bomb the prestigious targets, Wilhelm might have been disappointed his first team (the Navy) was beaten to London, after it had been first to bomb England. Could that have been why the House Order was so slow in coming? Not long after that Wilhelm shut down the army Zepps altogether!

Yes, when Detlev first sent me pictures of the bar he tucked that War Service Cross out of sight! Rick, do you have Linnarz's service record? I know his Zep service but nothing about his previous flying duties as observer or after the war!

As for identification and the higher standard of verification, Detlev sends a COA that contains color photos, his signature and a verification ink stamp on every page, just like a registered letter package. Then he folds down the upper corner of the multi-page COA and stamps it so no other pages of collectibles like missing Zep badges and other tchotchkes can be miraculously "married" to his group over time by me! Now that's verification of what he sold me to a high standard. But when individual medals are not named or impressed as on Commonwealth gallantries you just don't have that same high standard.

But hey, I'm not going to argue against my own group, as a cross-over collector I just notice the different degree to which one can be iron-clad, and speculate whether this is why Allied aviation groups are worth 3 or 4 or 5 times comparable German groups.

Rgds

John

Edited April 16, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Guest Rick Research]

German aviation-- BOTH wars-- is my particular weak point, unless it was navy.

I can only hope that with some encouragement to our German members SOMEBODY over there will renew the late Erhard Roth's work and resume transcription and publication of WW1 award rolls which will at least give us "snapshots" for assignments at times of awards.

Why Neal never even included airship personnel is something I never asked him. Too late now.

[Stogieman]

While there is substantial interest in these artifacts, the allied pieces seem to usually bring substantially more. I think German is undervalued and Allied is over-valued... but that's just my opinion, for what it's worth. I would suspect over time we will see an equalization.... remember that interest will peak again in 2018.......

[Ed_Haynes]

.... remember that interest will peak again in 2018.......

I'd bet on 2014, just eight years, as a date for the interest and price explosion.

The naming and research potential of British awards makes them items of much greater collector interest. There is also the linguistic problem that the collecting world is overwhelmingly Anglophone, and even many collectors of German items never bother learning German. Likewise, the fact that a fair number of these WWI German aviators went on into the Luftwaffe may reduce the market interest in them outside certain circles. Plus I think it is fair to say that there will always be more interest in awards to the winners than to the losers. Not sure any of this "should" be this way, but I just think it is this way.

My two annas worth.

[Luftmensch]

Agreed, Ed, except that the most popular vibrant area in collecting militaria bar none is 3rd Reich German....despite the snake pit that it is for collectors.

But the difference in WW1 values between Allied and Central Powers is probably for the reasons you state.

I have a feeling the relative values will stay relative, even as the coming tide of commemorations raises all values, because of the easy researchability of even the most common War and Victory medal. Imagine if EVERY Hindenburg Cross or EK2 could tell its story.