laurentius Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Dear fellow collectors, I am looking for information on Major a.D. Leber who earned an EK2 1813 at the battle of Groß Görschen, I'm looking for confirmation whether he also received the Russian cross of St.George. His name was Johann Christian Leber, he was born in 1788, and died in 1873 Thanks in advance and kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arb Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Laurentius, There is only one officer named "Leber" in the 1817 Rangliste. He was a Sec.Lt. and adjutant of the 4. Art. Brig. He retired on 11 August 1841 still a captain in the 5. Art. Brig. He was given the "Charakter" as a Major upon retirement. His awards in the 1841 Rangliste are EK2 PDK and RG5. I think this is the man you are looking for. His RG5 is listed in the 1817 Rangliste as well, but no EK2 yet. He seems to have received it a few years later, not an uncommon occurrence. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted March 20, 2020 Author Share Posted March 20, 2020 Dear Arb, thank you, that's the man I was looking for, I bought a painting last year of him and I wanted to see if there was any more information on him. With the painting also came an excerpt of his diary and some information on himself. I also received a document containing all the recipients of the EK 1813 still alive in 1863 at the 50th anniversary of the decoration. Here is the painting, as you can see he is still a Sec.Lt. here, in his diary he describes being given this rank in 1812. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArHo Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, laurentius said: Dear Arb, thank you, that's the man I was looking for, I bought a painting last year of him and I wanted to see if there was any more information on him. With the painting also came an excerpt of his diary and some information on himself. I also received a document containing all the recipients of the EK 1813 still alive in 1863 at the 50th anniversary of the decoration. Here is the painting, as you can see he is still a Sec.Lt. here, in his diary he describes being given this rank in 1812. Kind regards, Laurentius Most interesting, thanks for showing! If I may ask: Is his diary detailed or "just" a collection of notes? And what timeframe does he cover? Background: My interest in the wars 1813-15 :-) Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted March 20, 2020 Author Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) Dear Arho, the excerpt, only three pages, covers a few days in 1812, where he recounts his promotion, and a few of his men. It is more than a collection of notes. 10 hours ago, arb said: Laurentius, There is only one officer named "Leber" in the 1817 Rangliste. He was a Sec.Lt. and adjutant of the 4. Art. Brig. He retired on 11 August 1841 still a captain in the 5. Art. Brig. He was given the "Charakter" as a Major upon retirement. His awards in the 1841 Rangliste are EK2 PDK and RG5. I think this is the man you are looking for. His RG5 is listed in the 1817 Rangliste as well, but no EK2 yet. He seems to have received it a few years later, not an uncommon occurrence. Andy He did get his EK early on, in the first year of awarding (autumn 1813), was there already then a shortage, or was he given the EKII for bravery from a retrospective point of view? Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius Edited March 20, 2020 by laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArHo Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 4 hours ago, laurentius said: Dear Arho, the excerpt, only three pages, covers a few days in 1812, where he recounts his promotion, and a few of his men. It is more than a collection of notes. He did get his EK early on, in the first year of awarding (autumn 1813), was there already then a shortage, or was he given the EKII for bravery from a retrospective point of view? Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius @Laurentius - it may be that he did not get the Iron Cross immediately but that with his performance he earned the "right" to get the Iron Cross at a later time after one of those who got it immediately had died. This was done when there were not enough crosses to distribute (as far as I remember units got a fixed number of crosses that could be distributed - this meant that not necessarily the bravest got the medals. It was done in the 1870/71 war, too, which is the reason for most Prussian officers having earned the EK2 after the war but a far lower percentage of ordinary men). This is in short what may (!) have happened to Herr Leber (anybody please correct me when I am wrong), so I think he would have received his EK2 some time after 1817 but before 1824 when he is mentioned to have it, already as a captain. Compare S. 136: https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/6235182 Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted March 20, 2020 Author Share Posted March 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, ArHo said: he earned the "right" to get the Iron Cross at a later time I think you might be right here. The document I have for the veterans still alive in 1863 describes this problem and how it was handled. It also describes a rather lovely lunch the veterans received at the royal palace. The timeframe for the award is post 1817 but before 1830 when the painting was made. This would fit neatly into your frame from 1817 to 1824. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arb Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 His EK2 shows up in the 1818 Rangliste and all subsequent ones. Also, the painting shows him as a Major rather than as a Sec.Lt. The silver "fringe" on the epaulettes is the clue. So, the painting was completed after his retirement in 1841. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted March 20, 2020 Author Share Posted March 20, 2020 Dear Arb, How peculiar, I bought it from the family (who also supplied the diary excerpt and the documents) and they said it was painted around 1830, they could have been mistaken ofcourse. I always thought it weird because without the fringes it would be just a Sec.Lt. for which he seems too old in the picture. If the painting was made after 1841 that would mean he would atleast be 53 which is much more believable in my opinion. In the painting he is wearing 4 decorations (EKII, Medal for 1813 I presume (?), PDA, RG5). Since he was still alive in 1863 I would assume he also received the Erinnerungs-Kriegsdenkmünze für 1813-1815? Ofcourse this being a commemorative medal it doesn't show up in the ranklists. I'd like to thank all of you who have contributed to this thread. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Hi Laurentius, he received the EKII on 8 October 1817 vice the deceased Lieutenant Blumenthal. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Hi, a ery interesting thread. My question as a layman in medal-peculiars: I understand, that there were shortages in EKII during the war. My question is why they didn´t manufacture more after the war, when prorities could be rearranged. Just thrifty? Thanks, GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArHo Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 3 hours ago, laurentius said: Dear Arb, How peculiar, I bought it from the family (who also supplied the diary excerpt and the documents) and they said it was painted around 1830, they could have been mistaken ofcourse. I always thought it weird because without the fringes it would be just a Sec.Lt. for which he seems too old in the picture. If the painting was made after 1841 that would mean he would atleast be 53 which is much more believable in my opinion. In the painting he is wearing 4 decorations (EKII, Medal for 1813 I presume (?), PDA, RG5). Since he was still alive in 1863 I would assume he also received the Erinnerungs-Kriegsdenkmünze für 1813-1815? Ofcourse this being a commemorative medal it doesn't show up in the ranklists. I'd like to thank all of you who have contributed to this thread. Kind regards, Laurentius Laurentius - he did, here you go (List 1863) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArHo Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 @GreyC not absolutely sure about this (will have to look it up) but I think the contingents of EKs given to the units after battles were fixed portions of royal gratitude based on actual achievement and "lobby work" of commanders in the after action reports (anyone please correct if I am wrong). So there was no way to inflate the numbers afterwards - you had to take what you got and so they invented the way to reaward the crosses of deceased bearers - quite innovative if you ask me! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) Hi ArHo, interesting concept. So he earned it during the war and had to wait for a visible sign of recognition until some other guy died. Up to that point an EKII bearer in waiting... Cheers, JR Edited March 20, 2020 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 Would it be possible to find out why he got the RG5? Is there a list of Prussian recipients? I know there is a list of recipients who received it during the Franco-Prussian war. Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) Here is another picture of the painting which I have taken this morning It's rather hard to distinguish due to the flash, but there is a small 5 painted on each of the shoulderboards. Here are two other pieces from my collection, not related to the topic here, but I thought I'd be nice to show them. I don't know the name of the Oberleutnant in the first painting. The second piece is a drawing of Johann Albrecht of Mecklenburg, who served as regent of Braunschweig between 1908 and 1913. The piece is from that time, all original except for the new glass. Kind regards, Laurentius Edited March 21, 2020 by laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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