Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I have a question for the experts here in the Forum regarding the MMJO engraved ring number, or Matrikelnummer, and the recipient to which it was awarded.

I have access to Kramer´s “Virtuti Pro Patria” 1966 book, and Schrettinger´s 1882 book. Virtuti Pro Patria numbers seem to be chronological and not the actual “Matrikelnummer”

For example, Oberst Theodor Ritter von Hermann’s MMJO that was auctioned a couple of years ago, has a Matrikelnummer 289. However Virtuti Pro Patria (page 147) lists von Hermann’s MMJO as number 150. I guess this is the 150th. MMJO awarded during WW1.

So, how can I search a MMJO ring numbers to find out the times and recipients who received it? Where could I find this information?

Your guidance and help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

You are right about the chronological numbers in the Kramer's book. Like Wilhelm Ritter von Reitzenstein has the number one he should be the first to received the MJ3. This is not the case. he was in fact the 23rd officer to receive it. Ritter von Kaufmann has got number 24 and was the 21st officer to receive the MJ3. Don't forget that there are several award dates. The validation date, which is the date of the diploma. The date of official reception when the decoration is awarded to the officer and the date of ennoblement

The validation date of Kaufmann is 26 August 1914. He received it on 21 May 1915 and became Ritter von on 12 July 1915.

I know that in Munich there is a list with all officers and matricule on the ring. This list is secret to prevent possible counterfeiting.

Years ago I have posted my list here, you can make research easily.

Christophe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are the lists I think Christophe refers to: 

They give award numbers, though, not Matrikelnummern from a quick glance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Sandro, that's the good link for the list

Regards

Christophe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Deruelle said:

Hi

You are right about the chronological numbers in the Kramer's book. Like Wilhelm Ritter von Reitzenstein has the number one he should be the first to received the MJ3. This is not the case. he was in fact the 23rd officer to receive it. Ritter von Kaufmann has got number 24 and was the 21st officer to receive the MJ3. Don't forget that there are several award dates. The validation date, which is the date of the diploma. The date of official reception when the decoration is awarded to the officer and the date of ennoblement

The validation date of Kaufmann is 26 August 1914. He received it on 21 May 1915 and became Ritter von on 12 July 1915.

I know that in Munich there is a list with all officers and matricule on the ring. This list is secret to prevent possible counterfeiting.

Years ago I have posted my list here, you can make research easily.

Christophe

Thank you Christophe and Sandro. I had seen this wonderful thread with the list of recipients. As a matter of fact, I searched everywhere to see If I find the list with Matrikelnummern and recipients, but could not find any such thing.

For example von Epps MJ3 numbered 286 was awarded two times before him, once in the 1800’s. Kramer list this as MMJO Nr. 118

So, any idea on how to research a particular piece, say 286, and come up with the name of its 3 recipients? I would really like some help with this.

One more thing, all MJ3’s were numbered, and this number was unique right? I mean there were no two number X repeated Right?

it seems that the low numbered pieces that I have seen like 1, 33, etc, all were WW1 manufacture. So would this mean that there was no number 1, 33, etc produced in the 1800,s , or that the piece was no longer available, and a WW1 piece made to replace it?

In the case of von Epp’s the 1800 build piece was passed among 3 holders. However, could it be true that MJ3 number 1 was made two times. The 1800’s piece which at sometime became unavailable thus needing a 1914 piece also marked 1.

this is really confusing to me. I wish I could learn more....

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GMU said:

Thank you Christophe and Sandro. I had seen this wonderful thread with the list of recipients. As a matter of fact, I searched everywhere to see If I find the list with Matrikelnummern and recipients, but could not find any such thing.

For example von Epps MJ3 numbered 286 was awarded two times before him, once in the 1800’s. Kramer list this as MMJO Nr. 118

So, any idea on how to research a particular piece, say 286, and come up with the name of its 3 recipients? I would really like some help with this.

One more thing, all MJ3’s were numbered, and this number was unique right? I mean there were no two number X repeated Right?

it seems that the low numbered pieces that I have seen like 1, 33, etc, all were WW1 manufacture. So would this mean that there was no number 1, 33, etc produced in the 1800,s , or that the piece was no longer available, and a WW1 piece made to replace it?

In the case of von Epp’s the 1800 build piece was passed among 3 holders. However, could it be true that MJ3 number 1 was made two times. The 1800’s piece which at sometime became unavailable thus needing a 1914 piece also marked 1.

this is really confusing to me. I wish I could learn more....

 

 

Pleasure. I discussed the question of matching matrikelnumbers to recipients with Andreas Thies some time ago, and gather that ended, one has to go to the archives. I also understood high Martrikelnumbers to exist: that would argue against resistance of pieces using the old numbers. 

Thies just auctioned von Bothmer's MMJO knights cross with case and document. That cross had number 33, and according to he catalogue description, had been issued before to Ritter von Hopfner. in that context, he refers to Rudolf von Kramer, p74, presumably a reference to Virtuti Pro Patria

Is there a specific cross/Matrikelnumber you are researching? If so, can you share?  Thies, for example, has sold a fair number of identified MMJO's over time - perhaps a search of his catalogues can help tie a Matrikelnumber to an awardee?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Sandro, yes I have seen this MMJO recently auctioned. It is a beautiful piece in gold manufactured in WW1.

Kramer’s VPP mentions in pp 78-79 that Kurt Ritter von Hoppfer was awarded MMJO Nr. 33.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
Maybe a few comments on the subject. Ritter von Hopffer had the RK 
with the matriculation number 20. The references in Kramer do not 
refer to the matriculation number. Epp had the RK with the number 268 
and not 286. The RK with the number 286 was awarded only once in 1814
to a Russian (Schrettinger S. 68, Rapatel, Nr. 10 at the RK). 
Order decorations of current members (i.e., status 1882) of the MMJO
and their previous owners can be found in the Schrettinger on pages 
74 - 77.
 
The purpose of the matriculation numbers was for a member of the 
MMJO to find out who was allowed to wear this medal before him. The 
order of the awards was important for the "Ordenspension" (Monthly 
payment). These only existed for a certain number of members.
An overview of this ranking can be found in 

"Der Bayerische Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden im Weltkrieg 1914/1918, 
Teil III, Anlage 1". 

To my knowledge, this is the only publication of a ranking.
Attached is a scan of this list. Sorry for my bad english.

img942.thumb.jpg.a869865405a6df00887bc8baa7467511.jpgimg943.jpg

 

img945.jpg

 

Edited by waldo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hi Waldo,

Very interesting book. I would like to talk about that list. I see that Kaufmann has number 108. I had a copy from the Bavarian Archive and I had the MJ3 of Kaufmann. Ithas number 24 on the ring not 108

 

image.thumb.jpeg.cb672b0964a2349d5d2115b56423aec0.jpeg

Christophe

Edited by Deruelle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Waldo, thank you very much for your information. Yes, Ritter von Epp is 268. My bad, I inverted the numbers..

thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
Servus Christophe, No. 108 in the list at Kaufmann is not the 
matriculation number but the serial number in this book where 
it is listed. Sh. Picture attached.
Kaufmann had the RK with the number 24, that's correct.
Many Greetings from Bavaria 
Walter

img947.jpg

The Max Joseph Order published this book (booklet) itself in 1927 
and distributed it to its members. My copies are from the MMJO and 
PlM owner v. Haasy, retired major general and from Ritter von 
Grauvogl, whom I was allowed to collect personally from his grandson
alongside a copy of the Schrettingers. 

Here a cheap photocopy of such a booklet is offered.

 

 

 
Edited by waldo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent contribution Waldo, thank you. So the Verzichnis Nrn. in the list match the Matrikelnr. of the MJO bestowed on the person listed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
No, the list does not include matrikelnumbers. The number at the 
end is the number under which the member of the MMJO is listed 
in this booklet. See above.
The only published matriculation numbers known to me so far are 
in the Schrettinger.
Unfortunately my English is not good and I have to rely on Google. 
I'll try it again:

This booklet was published by the order in 1927 and distributed to 
the members. This includes all officers awarded the MMJO in 
alphabetical order with their deeds. Furthermore you can see the 
ranking within the individual classes. I attach the table of 
contents as an attachment.

 

 

 

img949.jpg

Edited by waldo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, waldo said:

No, the list does not include matrikelnumbers. The number at the 
end is the number under which the member of the MMJO is listed 
in this booklet. See above.

The only published matriculation numbers known to me so far are 
in the Schrettinger.

Unfortunately my English is not good and I have to rely on Google. 
I'll try it again:

This booklet was published by the order in 1927 and distributed to 
the members. This includes all officers awarded the MMJO in 
alphabetical order with their deeds. Furthermore you can see the 
ranking within the individual classes. I attach the table of 
contents as an attachment.


 


 


 

img949.jpg

Vielen Dank, Waldo, alles Klar und Ihr English ist sehr gut verständlich.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you, I have already put the link to it in the SDA. 

I would have just scanned the booklet but the file is too big to be set here.

😐

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi WaIdo 

If you take photos I have something to resize the pictures. Then I could posted them here for you.

Christophe

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
Hello Christophe,

it is a pdf with 36 double pages and a size of 57 MB. I have already 
saved and compressed them into 3 parts. Nevertheless, I cannot set 
them here because the file is under 8 MB in size, but the system 
still says that they are too large.

Walter

Edited by waldo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

Here is the book from Waldo's library. All the pages have been resized to be post here.

Christophe

6 - 7_copy_1566x1011.jpg

4 - 5_copy_1566x1038.jpg

2 - 3_copy_1566x962.jpg

1_copy_1566x938.jpg

8 - 9_copy_1566x1001.jpg

10 - 11_copy_1566x1013.jpg

12 - 13_copy_1566x1015.jpg

14 - 15_copy_1566x1018.jpg

16 - 17_copy_1566x1008.jpg

18 - 19_copy_1566x1011.jpg

20 - 21_copy_1566x1006.jpg

22 - 23_copy_1566x1020.jpg

24 - 25_copy_1566x1011.jpg

26 - 27_copy_1566x1024.jpg

28 - 29_copy_1566x1013.jpg

30 - 31_copy_1566x1014.jpg

32 - 33_copy_1566x1005.jpg

34 - 35_copy_1566x1009.jpg

.../...

 

38 - 39_copy_1566x1013.jpg

40 - 41_copy_1566x1022.jpg

42 - 43_copy_1566x1003.jpg

44 - 45_copy_1566x1005.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, Many thanks Waldo for your contribution.

Christophe

 

46 - 47_copy_1566x1014.jpg

48 - 49_copy_1566x1010.jpg

50 - 51_copy_1566x1006.jpg

52 - 53_copy_1566x1008.jpg

54 - 55_copy_1566x1016.jpg

56 - 57_copy_1566x1011.jpg

58 - 59_copy_1566x1009.jpg

60 - 61_copy_1566x1011.jpg

62 - 63_copy_1566x1017.jpg

64 - 65_copy_1566x1008.jpg

66 - 67_copy_1566x1011.jpg

68 - 69_copy_1566x1011.jpg

70 u Erg_copy_1566x1055.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Christophe and Walter!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, GMU said:

Thank you Christophe and Walter!!

Hear hear!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
At least the magazine is now online. Many thanks to Christophe and 
best regards from Bavaria
Walter
Edited by waldo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Blog Comments

    • Thanks for your reply Patrick, just in case some might not know what the Belgian WW1 Medal you were referencing looks like I have included one here. I understand that the small crown on the ribbon denoted the recipient was a volunteer.  
    • Brian, Thanks for initiating this discussion. For me, it’s a combination of the thrill of the chase, the history behind the item, and the aesthetics, although this latter factor may seem a bit strange to some. To illustrate this, the very first thing I collected as a kid in the 1950’s was a Belgian WW1 medal, for service in 1914-18, which is bell shaped, with a very striking profile of a very dignified soldier, wearing an Adrian helmet which bears a laurel wreath. It was the image that
    • Thank you for sharing your story, it was most interesting and greatly appreciated, it makes this blog well worth the time to post. Regards Brian  
    • Hello I started collecting when I found my first Mauser cartridges in a field next to my parents' house next to Armentières. I was eight years old.  Then shrapnel, schrapnell balls, darts... That's how I became a historian. When I was 18, we used to walk through the fields with a metal detector to find our happiness. It was my time in the army as a research-writer in a research centre that made me love the orders of chivalry. I've been collecting them for 24 years now. Christophe
    • Thank you for your most interesting comment. The thrill of the chase didn't interest me in the beginning but over time it started to overshadow the act of simply adding yet another medal or group to the collection. Regards Brian  
×
×
  • Create New...