IRON CROSS 1813 MEDAL BAR ID

[RobS]

Hi everyone, 

this is my first post on this wonderful forum, and also a brief introduction. My name is Rob, I am a historian and (among other things) historical editor of 'Iron Cross Magazine' (Warners Publishing Plc). Personally I collect everything that sparks my interest. Mostly items that allow further research - which is probably why most of my militaria collection consists of paper and cardboard. I am very much interested in the cultural history of the Iron Cross and I am currently writing a book on the 'combat history' of the same, but I can't give too much away there atm. 

I am not sure if this is the right forum, but "Imperial German States" would have been wrong. So I hope the Iron Cross sub-forum is okay (should that not be named 1813 to 1945 btw?)

I recently accquired this oil portrait via an Ebay 'trade agent' (they still exist much to my surprise) near Hanover. He was so kind to get me in touch with the old lady who asked him to sell it for her. She informed me that her father had accquired the painting shortly after WW2 from a house in Gerdau near Uelzen in Germany. It is typical 'Biedermeier' painting (in the UK you class it late late Georgian). It is dated signed and dated 1831. 

As you can see it clearly shows a gentleman who served with distinction in the Wars of Liberation. It is clear however, that the artist wasn't particularly fussed about getting detail into the medal bar. This is quite common at the time, but still a bit of a pain in the bum. My question is - what would you think we see on this bar. I see:

1. Iron Cross 1813
2. KDM 1813/14/15 (impossible to say which one)
3. ???? this is a mystery - reminds me of the Russian 1814 medal for capture of Paris)
4. Dienstauszeichnung (jewellers piece, FW III) 

The ribbon colours are ALL not only faded (there are some faint traces of orange pigment on the KDM ribbon), they are also not very well done. 

I would love to hear what the combined expertise of this forum has to offer in terms of identifiying the third medal on this bar 

Warm regards, danke and have a great evening all! 

Rob

 

 

[graham]

Maybe a Herzogtum Nassau: Silver Military Merit Medal:

 

[Claudius]

Nassau; Silver Military Merit Medal, 1^st model 1807-1818

I can see how this is a good candidate.    I looked at the Imp.Rus. Capture of Paris, but two things dissuaded me; the ribbon colors and the öse size represented in the painting.  

[RobS]

Hi both, 

 

the 1807 Bravery Medal (Nassau) was also awarded to foreigners, and you are right, the  suspension looks very similar. The ribbon of that however was blue-yellow-blue. But I guess the artist didnt think much of ribbon colours in general. Damn I wish I could identify this gentleman. 

 

246 awarded, also for Kolberg. Would be tempting to believe that is the one. 

 

Danke!

[RobS]

Also intrigues me that the artist - who was perfectly capable to paint a face - clearly tried to depict a deformity on the gentleman's face (left side of his face). See that the mouth lacks a 'corner', there is also a scar. Had two professional artists look at this and we all agree that this has been done on purpose. War wound? If only the painting could speak. 

[Claudius]

4 hours ago, RobS said:

Damn I wish I could identify this gentleman. 

Danke!

hmmm, I don't think it would garner a name directly, but another approach is the artist himself.  You mentioned that the painting is signed and dated.  Some artists are known well enough that there are details about who they were and WHERE they did most of their commissioned work.  Some have catalog of their known pieces.  But this pursuit would be through a different venue, perhaps a forum on 19th century painters (if there is one).  They do this sort of thing on the Antiques Roadshow.  The artist might be someone that is known in the art collecting community.  

[RobS]

6 hours ago, Claudius said:

hmmm, I don't think it would garner a name directly, but another approach is the artist himself.  You mentioned that the painting is signed and dated.  Some artists are known well enough that there are details about who they were and WHERE they did most of their commissioned work.  Some have catalog of their known pieces.  But this pursuit would be through a different venue, perhaps a forum on 19th century painters (if there is one).  They do this sort of thing on the Antiques Roadshow.  The artist might be someone that is known in the art collecting community.  

Good morning. The artist is know locally. But there are no records as such, he wasn't a "great name". I know that ID will be impossible.  I wonder if there are award lists for the Nassau 1807 bravery medal. 

[BlackcowboyBS]

Well Nassau could be from the look of the suspension loop, but why should an artist be that ignorand to paint wrong colors of the ribbon? Or the guy has mounted his medal to a wrong ribbon, that happened from time to time. I knew some medal bars where medals are mounted to a wrong ribbon. 

 

[saxcob]

9 hours ago, RobS said:

  I wonder if there are award lists for the Nassau 1807 bravery medal. 

Yes, and I have them.

However, I am afraid the gentleman on your painting is not to be found among the soldiers listed there since

1. the ribbon is not correct
2. the medal on the painting is way too smal
3. the Nassau medal was not awarded to foreign troops but only to those in the duke's service

Do also not forget that for the bigger share of the Napoleonic Wars Prussians and Nassauers were fighting each other (incl. at Kolberg 1807) and probably only joined forces at Waterloo.

[RobS]

42 minutes ago, saxcob said:

Yes, and I have them.

However, I am afraid the gentleman on your painting is not to be found among the soldiers listed there since

1. the ribbon is not correct
2. the medal on the painting is way too smal
3. the Nassau medal was not awarded to foreign troops but only to those in the duke's service

Do also not forget that for the bigger share of the Napoleonic Wars Prussians and Nassauers were fighting each other (incl. at Kolberg 1807) and probably only joined forces at Waterloo.

Thanks for the excellent information, As I said before, the Nassau medal wasn't on my possible list for several of those reasons. I am still seeing something Russian there. But who knows..

 

Thanks a lot again! 

[ArHo]

Hi, I am irritated by the very unusual form of the loop which does not seem to be a product of hasty painting. It would fit the named Nassau medal, but also the Nassau Waterloo medal - perhaps the better possibility, regarding the size (?), although the ribbon is wrong in this case, too, of course. Just my 2 cents, cheers.

[RobS]

3 hours ago, ArHo said:

Hi, I am irritated by the very unusual form of the loop which does not seem to be a product of hasty painting. It would fit the named Nassau medal, but also the Nassau Waterloo medal - perhaps the better possibility, regarding the size (?), although the ribbon is wrong in this case, too, of course. Just my 2 cents, cheers.

Yes, the suspension loop looks square, but maybe it isnt. Size would indeed not fit. Neither would a Prussian wear a Nassau campaign medal. The Russian medal for Paris (1814) would make a LOT of sense, would fit sizewise and it came with an unusual coloured ribbon which would very, very roughly fit the artists interpretation. What do you think?