Help identifying order

[v dem Knesebeck]

Apologies if this is the wrong subforum, but unfortunately I know so little about this little portrait that I'm going with the approximate period of the uniform. Is anyone able to identify any features of it? I'm thinking especially the two orders. There's no background info to provide, other than that I came across it in an Italian house (it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Italy). Any help appreciated!

[BlackcowboyBS]

My first thought was the Order of Merit of the Bavarian Crown, but then I counted the arms of his commanders cross and then I thought: Nope, six arms instead of 8. 

Then I thought maybe the Order of Saint Joseph but the crown is missing! But this would fit with Italy. 

The second one then might be  the Order of Saint Januarius. But this is a pretty wild guess! 

Edited November 12, 2020 by BlackcowboyBS

[paul wood]

i am sure it is the order of merit of the bavarian crown, ribbon matches. Painters are noted for getting depictions of orders wrong

I frequently advise painting experts on orders and if I had £10 for every incorrectly depicted order on a painting, even by top painters I have encountered I would have long since retired to Barbados.

P

[laurentius]

The second cross looks a bit like the Dutch Military Order Of William. A white enamelled cross, balls on the end of the cross arms and something in the centre which looks to be a piece of flint and steel. There also seems to be a crown, sadly obstructed by the first cross.

Kind regards, Laurentius

 

[v dem Knesebeck]

21 hours ago, paul wood said:

i am sure it is the order of merit of the bavarian crown, ribbon matches. Painters are noted for getting depictions of orders wrong

I frequently advise painting experts on orders and if I had £10 for every incorrectly depicted order on a painting, even by top painters I have encountered I would have long since retired to Barbados.

P

I can see what you mean, but to have both the wrong number of arms and to be missing the wreath seems like two big mistakes to make? His uniform doesn't strike me as Bavarian, but then the order could expressely be awarded to foreigners too. Would be keen to get more opinions before committing to that theory though.

[v dem Knesebeck]

The only order I can even find that has six arms is the Tuscan/Würzburg Order of Saint Joseph, but many of its other features don't match either.

Edited November 13, 2020 by v dem Knesebeck

[peter monahan]

Sadly, it may be the case that the artist simply created a fancy looking order to go around the subject's neck.  Six arms certainly is unusual and one would think it would make identification fairly easy. 

[paul wood]

many painters did the face from life and the remainder from memory often employing a student to apply the finishing touches and as we all know after a few bottles of wine the memory is often less than reliable

p

[v dem Knesebeck]

4 hours ago, paul wood said:

as we all know after a few bottles of wine the memory is often less than reliable

Haha fair enough!

Anyone any thoughts on the uniform? I don't recognise the style, it strikes me as potentially being a court/diplomatic uniform, though the dramatically draped cloak is quite militaristic...

[peter monahan]

22 hours ago, paul wood said:

many painters did the face from life and the remainder from memory often employing a student to apply the finishing touches and as we all know after a few bottles of wine the memory is often less than reliable

p

Exactly.  There are a number of prints of Highlanders, who occupied Paris in 1815 and fascinated the French.  The uniforms are quite accurate but he forgot their shoes, so they all wear what look like ballet slippers in the finished product.   

[v dem Knesebeck]

Anyone any thoughts on the uniform itself?