Ribbon bar interpretation

[Valter]

I got this ribbon bar a while ago and I would ask your help with interpretation. It is big bar (15 cm), probably made from full size ribbons, very sturdy and tightly sewn, UV-negative, with consistent wear. Magnetic backing plate, I can feel there was pin and hook, but they are broken off. Style is weird, especially three pairs of swords, which are IMHO placed there randomly, just for sake of simmetry.

 

I assume it's a bar to Bavarian. I see: BMVK/BMVO with swords, but no swords on the ribbon (!), then BMVV/BMVO w/o swords (peacetime ribbon with added swords!), Jubilee medal 1906, Oldenburg FAK, two Ek ribbons and China medal ribbon. There are holes on the last one for two spangen, which are sadly missing. For Ek ribbons I assume one is EK2, what is the other? Krieger-verdinestmedaille? What else could be awarded on EK ribbon? I believe this is not an officer bar, as it doesn't have long service ribbons. Could it be reserve officer? If it's officer, then it could be RAO / KO on EK ribbon.

 

I kindly appreciate any help!

 

Valter

 

[dedehansen]

Hi Valter,

 

bayr. MVO WW1

 

bayr. MVO X for China

 

Jub Med für die Armee 1905

 

Oldenburg Hausorden Peter Friedrich Ludwig

 

EK 2 1914

 

preuß. Kronenorden or Roter Adler Orden 4 X

 

Chinadenkmünze

Regards

Andreas

[Deruelle]

Hi,

 

Very nice ribbon bar. I think it is possible to id the owner of this bar. You need the Bavarian Rangliste between 1907 and 1909 to see which officer have received the MVOX and PKO4X (or RAO4X).

I can see 4 small holes in the China ribbon, so two China's claps has been remowed, too bad.

Good research. I think you can downloaded the Bavarian Ranglisten online. See the Orden und Ehrenzeichen forum and you will probably find them.

 

https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/search?query=all%3ARanglisten

 

Chirstophe

[Valter]

Helo Andreas,

 

thank you for quick and most informing reply! So this is an officer bar. So swords are there for purpose, it makes perfect sense. Why there's no long service award? He should collect enough years from China to WW1? Does Oldenburg decoration suggest navy? Thanks in advance, I'm eager to learn more about this bar.

Christophe,

 

thank you for valuable additional clues! I'll dig into search and see where I can get!

Christophe,

 

thank you for your valuable clues! I'll dig into research and see where I can get.

[Daniel Krause]

Very nice one!!

Congratulations!

 

There was only one bavarian Officer with that combination of awards.

Captain Ludwig POLAND. born 1873

somehow, after the China campaign , he retired and was called back for WW1.

The 1st ribbon by the way represents a WW1 4th class with crown and swords, I wonder, why Poland did not have the fitting attachment added...

There is no long service award because he did not have enough active years to get it.

Maybe after WW1, but this bar dates around 1916, I would guess.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Valter]

Daniel, that's amazing!!!!!!! Thank you very much for your help! If you ever come to Slovenia, I owe you some beers!!! Now I'll try to find more information about captain Poland.

[Daniel Krause]

Dobro! Pivo is a good idea!!!

 

If you have access to ancestry.com you might find his personnel file.

 

Best

Daniel

 

[Valter]

Hello Daniel,

 

I have some problems wih ancestry, but I found some more data:

 

born 13. 4. 1873; I also found him on a list of German personell in East Asian detachemnt

 

http://www.boxeraufstand.com/expeditionsteilnehmer/rangliste_landstreitkraefte.htm

 

He was leutenant then, in II. Seebatallion, thre's also his picture on the site:

 

Additional search is a problem, b/c google yields mostly results connected with state of Poland ?

[Valter]

Found one more photo (group): he is in 2nd row, with glasses.

[Valter]

Small update about Poland - I found him in two ordensalmanachs (1904/05 and 1908/09) and can confirm some of his orders:

 in 1904/05 he already had:

 

- BayMB4bX - Bayrischer Militärverdienstorden - Ritter 2. klasse w. swords; that's MBVO4X, right? #2 on the bar

- DChM - China Denkmünze

- OldB3bX - Oldenburgisches Haus- und Verdienst-Orden des Herzogs PFL - Ritter 2. klasse m. schwerten - #4 on the bar

- PrKr4X - Preussisches Kronenorden m. Schwerte - #6 on the bar, so it is not RAO4x, mistery solved

 

In 1908, he also had Bavarian Jubilee medal for 1905 (BayJ).

 

About his service: in 1904/05 he was in 4. bay. Inf. Regiment in Metz. In 1908/09 he is still in the same regiment, but he is "k. z." 2. Train batallion in Würzburg.

 

What k. z. means? Kommandiert zu?

 

Despite ha was in China with Seebataillon, I coulnd find him in any of Navy ranklisten available online here:

 

https://www.deutsche-gesellschaft-fuer-ordenskunde.de/DGOWP/bibliothek/digitale-bibliothek/

 

Not in ranklists 1896, 1899, 1904, 1907 or 1909; 1900 is unconveniently missing... Anyway, DOA entries gave me additional clues for research.

 

Thanks again everyone who helped me to identify this bar!

[Leutwein]

Here you can see his pre-1914-bar!

He had the battle clasps Liang-Hsiang-Hsien and Nan-Hung-Men which are missing on your ribbon-bar.

 

Best wishes

 

 

 

[Valter]

Wow, that's great, Leutwein!!!

 

Any chance to see the whole picture?

 

PS: I found about KB 4. IB, that 3 officers, 4 NCOs and 27 men volunteered for China expedition. So he was probably in the 4th IB before and temporarily attached to II. Seebataillon.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Königlich_Bayerisches_4._Infanterie-Regiment_„König_Wilhelm_von_Württemberg“

[Glenn J]

His entry in the "Offizier-Stammliste der Marine-Infanterie" 1904. As can be seen, prior to his Marine-Infanterie service, he was in the 9. Infanterie-Regiment.

 

Regards

Glenn

 

[Glenn J]

Below are his listings in the 1902 Marine-Rangliste (his last) and the 1903 Bavarian Militär-Handbuch:

 

 

KO4X: 28 May 1901

BMV4bX: 28 February 1902

OV3bX: 30 July 1902

 

He retired as an Oberleutnant on 6 January 1909 and was recalled for service in August 1914. Hauptmann on 13 April 1915 (4).

 

Regards

Glenn

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dond]

Fantastic work all.  Another face added to a bar.

[Valter]

Glenn, thank you very much for those great scans with additional information! It is amazing how much knowledge can we acquire about a "mere" Hauptmann who is probably dead 100 or so years.

 

So, to keep Hauptmann Ludwig Poland alive in our memory, here is his summary CV:

 

Ludwig POLAND, born 13. 4. 1873, from Nürnberg, catholic; father: hauptmann

 

Decorations:

 

1. MVO4XmKr for WW1

2. BayMB4bX – Bayerischer Militärverdienstorden - Ritter 2. klasse w. swords (MVO4X) for China: 28. 2. 1902

3. Bayerische Jubiläums Medaille für die Armee 1905

4. OldB3bX (OP4mX) – Oldenburgisches Haus- und Verdienst-Orden des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig - Ritter 2. klasse m. Schwerten: 30. 7. 1902

5. EK2 1914

6. KO4X (Preuß. Kronenorden 4. klasse m. Schwerten): 28. 5. 1901

7. Chinadenkmünze: battle clasps Liang-Hsiang-Hsien and Nan-Hung-Men

 

Career:

before 1892: Kadettenkorps

8. 7. 1892: Portepee-Fähnrich, Bayerischen 9. Infanterie-Regiment »Wrede«

8. 6. 1894: Second-Leutnant

29. 3. 1900: transfer to II. Seebataillon

1900-1901: Aktion in China

23. 8. 1901 – 13. 12. 1902: Marineschule

20. 1. 1903: Bayerische 4. Infanterie-Regiment »König Wilhelm von Württemberg«

28. 10. 1903: Oberleutnant

6. 1. 1909: retired as Oberleutnant (36 years old, 17 years of service, not counting Kadettenkorps)

august 1914: reactivated

13 4. 1915: Hauptmann