1870 ribbon bar with unknown ribbons.

[CRBeery]

I picked this one up on the road this week and I do not know what ribbons 7 and 8 are. The oaks have been removed from the EK2 but otherwise this is a nice bar for the age. Thanks for looking.

[CRBeery]

The ribbons are dark green with yellow stripes. Here is the back. Thanks in advance.

[Guest Rick Research]

What you have there, you lucky man in the best casual finding stuff picking grounds on earth, are TWO grades of Baden Z?hringen Lion Order (so one presumably had swords) and the Baden Campaign Medal with no bars on here for 1866 and 1870-- probably couldn't get spares.

This is an Oberstleutnant or young Oberst's bar-- Red Eagle 4, Crown 3rd.

Identification is not out of the question, with the double Z?hringens. Stay tuned-- I'm sure somebody with an 1897 Rank List will find him-- probably assigned OUT of a Baden unit in the general promotion pool for Majors up.

[HeikoGrusdat]

may I ask what roads I have to drive to find these bars...???

Great stuff!!!

Rick, when is your birthday? I think I have to send you a 1897 ranklist...

[CRBeery]

OZL's??? I thought about that with the Baden medal on the end but there were never any swords on this bar and the color is very dark for an OZL. Was there a color change for the WW1 issue ones that I have on other bars? Not doubting, just trying to learn more.

Heiko - I drive around many roads and know a few people. Most people that I know prefer TR items so this odd Imperial stuff gets left for me. As Rick notes I am a little bit lucky. Maybe I should post the other things I came home with??? It really all comes down to time spent looking.

Thanks for the help. I hope someone can put a name to this one. I fell in love with it as soon as I saw it.

[Paul C]

Chet, I have a 1897 Prussian Ranklist on my Volume 2 CD. That being said what regiments should I look in to find this guy and what should I look for as far a letters and symbols?

[Guest Rick Research]

Already had my birthday this year.

Yes, I think the 19th century Z?hringens had a much darker green than the WW1 era ones... or perhaps it was a difference in the color fastness of the dyes. Many of the orange stripes are faded away on all the types.

Probably a BZ3bX and then either a BZ3a or a BZ3amE.

Devices aren't missing, he just isn't wearing them, for whatever reason. Maybe he got his BZ3bX in 1866 and so didn't wear the X device or his bronze "1866" bar on the campaign medal (might not have been IN that war, but certainly would have had the "1870-71" war bar) ribbon because Baden was Prussia's ENEMY in that war and that... was awkward in an 1890s regiment which might have had battle honors from OPPOSING him way back then.

[notned]

Nice Bar Chet!

And please do post the 'other items' you picked up on your travels...

By the way ...what do you do ...that gets you travelling alot?

Regards from NZ

Paul

Edited April 27, 2006 by notned

[CRBeery]

Rick,

I find the 1866 / 1870 - 1871 thing fascinating. I kind of wondered if it ever started a bar fight as the conflicts were so close together. Here is part of a Baden bar where the owner was not shy about being there.

Paul,

I am an engineer. I travel to support sales people when they sell my product line so I end up in a lot of places. If I have time before I travel I try to set up meetings with other collectors before I go. It has worked out well and it is fun to talk with someone and get to know them better. It is one of the great things that you can not get from the Internet - so hop on a plane and come over!

PS - I picked this one up on a trip to Toronto. I guess it pays to avoid the Canadian "ballet" once in a while.

Edited April 28, 2006 by CRBeery

[Bob Hunter]

Nice bar, Chet!

Heiko, my birthday doesn't happen until late June. Send me the ranklist and save Rick's eyesight!

[Daniel Murphy]

the color is very dark for an OZL.

Chet,

I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw it, but the color was odd. I shall have to pay more attention to my intuition from now on. That is a fantastic bar and I know that someone will be able to put a name on it.

Dan Murphy

[Guest Rick Research]

I have been through my 1890 Rank List, and working on the assumption from the biography this bar tells that this fellow was a native Badener promoted away from Baden, using the TWO Z?hringen Lions (one must have X and the other not-- can't wear two of the "same kind" together), I come up with exactly THREE suspects for anybody with an 1897 edition to check up on, please:

An INFANTRY officer named KELLER, Major 22.10.87 A, in 1890 Commander of I./Inf Regt 97, holding EK2 1870, RAO4, XXV, BZL3a, and BZL3bX. He would have been either an Oberst or a senior Oberstleutnant in '97, and what needs to be checked is ONLY having added a Prussian Crown Order to his medal bar awards. Not in the Orders Almanac or recalled for WW1.

FIELD ARTILLERY officer Julius von BECK, Major 13.12.87 R, in Feldart Regt 3 in 1890 holding EK2 1870, XXV, BZ3a, and BZ3bX. He was born in Rastatt 16 January 1846, and per 1902 Rank List retired 1901/02 as Generalmajor with char. retirement bump out as Generalleutnant. Orders Almanac shows him with final awards (so circa 1897 has to be checked for matching the bar) RAO2mE, KO2, HP2b, IM&L 3, and RA2 as commander grades.

FOOT ARTILLERY officer named (1st name unknown) ASBRAND genannt von PORBECK, Major11.2.86 H in Fussart Regt 5 in 1890, holding EK2 1870, XXV, BZ3a, and BZ3bX.

Any of these NOT still on active duty in 1897 can be scratched. Other suspects may be out there with 1890+ peacetime Z?hringens... but I doubt it. TWO of medal bar grade was quite, quite unusual.

[Stogieman]

That's a beautiful bar Chet.... don't know how you do it! I never see anything decent when I'm out and about anymore.

[Paul C]

I did not find a Major Keller or a PORBECK in the 1897 RL. I did find an Oberst v. Beck. Here is his entry.

[Glenn J]

Rick, Paul,

that is the same Julius von BECK in Feldart Regt 3 in 1890.

Oberst Karl Friedrich Victor August Asbrand gen. von Porbeck retired as the commander of Fu?artillerie-Regiment Nr. 14 on the 18th of July 1896. This from 1896.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

So there you go--

Julius von Beck's circa 1897 ribbon bar-- his Tsarist Saint Anna being a Commander grade award.

[attachmentid=37324]

The Team scores yet again!!!!!

And a PERFECT example to use in the future New & Improved Version Ribbon Bar Article if that's OK with you, Chet?

[Ed_Haynes]

Ka---thunk

Right through the hoop, no rim.

Well executed!

[Stogieman]

It's always kind of scary when he does this.... I've witnessed it... He starts by licking African toads....

[CRBeery]

To all: many thanks to you that helped with this. I do greatly appreciate it. I think this is my first known item to a general. I am very happy as you can imagine. I wish I could give back as much as I receive.

Rick, I would be proud if you did use this piece in your article. I hope the pictures are good for you. If not we can arrange a visitation to your scanner if needed.

Thanks again,

Chet

And - toads are OK, stay away from the African milipedes. They secret something along the lines of cianide!!!

[Paul C]

I wonder if he is related to FieldMarshall von Beck of Third Reich time?

[Glenn J]

Paul,

I doubt it. Char. Generaloberst Ludwig Beck was not a "von".

Regards

Glenn