CRBeery Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 I received these two pieces today and I am fascinated by the KO4 on NK ribbon. I did find an old article here that said 166 of these were awarded so it is possible. The patina on the ribbons seems consistent. I find the bronze 1870/71 KDM on the chain odd as I would expect silver but I believe this was a possible combination. Are there red flags here that I am missing? I do have a return period on these if there is an issue. Would this have been a long serving administrative Captain of the reserves? All thoughts are appreciated! I also find it odd that the chain has the orders mounted backwards!
CRBeery Posted March 21, 2023 Author Posted March 21, 2023 I am seeing this type of combination in “Justice Advisors” in Garde units. What was their roll?
CRBeery Posted March 24, 2023 Author Posted March 24, 2023 Thanks to my old friends! I guess I thought this set would generate a bit more interest.
Komtur Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 On 21/03/2023 at 04:47, CRBeery said: I am seeing this type of combination in “Justice Advisors” in Garde units. ... Something like that is quite possible. It looks like a military official (Militärbeamter), not necessarily justice and Garde, it could be any other kind of so called Intendanturbeamter and any other kind of unit. These military officials were the typical group for the rare awards of prussian orders on the white ribbon with black stripes. Additionly these persons in 1871 got the Kriegsdenkmünze für Nichtkämpfer on the equivalent ribbon. If they with there units took part on combats, they were entitlet for the corresponding clasps. If the miniatur medal has the inscription Dem siegreichen Heere (I can´t see that for sure) it is the combatant version and for the discussed case the wrong medal. The combination of a combatant medal with the non-combatand-ribbon is not possible, but this mistake happend with miniatures sometimes because of the necessarily private purchase. It is not unlikely, to track this combination down to one person. I would check Prussian rank lists from about 1890 to 1900 in the first part Armee-Eintheilung, where you can find these persons for the Armee-Corps and the Divisionen. Regards, Komtur. 2
CRBeery Posted April 23, 2023 Author Posted April 23, 2023 So far in my 1882 Rang-Liste the best I have found is Hauptmann Zander in Posen Landwehr Regiment 18. I remember there being a web sight with RL’s uploaded on it. Does it still exist?
Komtur Posted April 23, 2023 Posted April 23, 2023 In accordance with the Königlich-Preußische Ordensliste 1886 indeed Militair-Intendantur-Rath (Hptm.) Zander b. 5. Armee-Korps got the Crown-Order 3rd class on 13th of September 1882. But unfortunately he is no more listed in the Königlich-Preußische Ordensliste 1895, so he must have died in between. Therefore because of the creation of the Prussian Red Cross Medal in 1898 he can not be the one, you are searching for. Regards, Komtur. 1
CRBeery Posted April 23, 2023 Author Posted April 23, 2023 Can you explain the Königlich-Preußische Ordensliste? I am wondering if this was a state publication that listed all holders of an award until death or retirement. Did one have to pay to remain in it? I remember Rick Research mentioning a publication like this.
The Prussian Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) Hello! A very beautiful set! Because of the battle clasps, we can say, that he must have been in 1st or 2nd army. During all of those three battles, these units were participated: 1.Army: 4th Inf.Brig. (Gren.Rgt.5, Füs.Rgt.33, Ldw.Rgt.5, Ldw.Rgt.45) 3./Drag.Rgt.10 6./Feldart.Rgt.1 VII.Army-corps 2.Army: 18th Inf.Div. (without II./GR11) I./Füs.Rgt.36 parts of Jg.Btl.9 parts of hess. Pio.Kp., Hauptmann Zander 1871 was Pr.Lt. in Res.Ldw.Btl. Magdeburg 36 (IV.Army-corps) Edited April 24, 2023 by The Prussian
CRBeery Posted April 24, 2023 Author Posted April 24, 2023 Thank you for the further information! I have been focusing on Landwehr units do to his 20 year LD1.
saschaw Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) How about Hauptmann Wendt from Landwehrbezirk I Breslau? In the 1900 Royal Prussian army rank list, he's listed with RAO4, KO3, KO4w, EK2w and LD1. An RKM3 is still missing, but he might have added that later... My next rank list is from 1902, in which I could not find him. Neither is he listed in the 1904/05 or 1908/09 issues of Deutscher Ordens-Almanach. Komtur, might you maybe have a look into the Ordens-Listen? 10 hours ago, CRBeery said: Can you explain the Königlich-Preußische Ordensliste? I am wondering if this was a state publication that listed all holders of an award until death (...) The Königlich Preußische Ordens-Liste was the official source that listed all recipients of Prussian awards that were alive to the date of publishing. In contrast to the commercially published Ordens-Alamanach, no one had to pay to be listed here. Thus, it's probably our best source for questions like this. Edited April 24, 2023 by saschaw
saschaw Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 13 minutes ago, saschaw said: How about Hauptmann Wendt from Landwehrbezirk I Breslau? The 1877 Ordens-Liste has two Wendts with an EK2w, a Feld-Magazin-Rendant b. d. General-Etappen-Inspektion d. 3. Armee Julius Eduard Hermann Wendt, and a Feld-Proviantmeister beim 6. Armee-Korps Karl Friedrich Hermann Wendt (both: p. 1246). No idea which of these two is "mine"... and if it is his group.
CRBeery Posted April 25, 2023 Author Posted April 25, 2023 16 hours ago, saschaw said: How about Hauptmann Wendt from Landwehrbezirk I Breslau? In the 1900 Royal Prussian army rank list, he's listed with RAO4, KO3, KO4w, EK2w and LD1. An RKM3 is still missing, but he might have added that later... My next rank list is from 1902, in which I could not find him. Neither is he listed in the 1904/05 or 1908/09 issues of Deutscher Ordens-Almanach. Komtur, might you maybe have a look into the Ordens-Listen? The Königlich Preußische Ordens-Liste was the official source that listed all recipients of Prussian awards that were alive to the date of publishing. In contrast to the commercially published Ordens-Alamanach, no one had to pay to be listed here. Thus, it's probably our best source for questions like this. He is gone in 1901. Checked every Wendt.
CRBeery Posted April 25, 2023 Author Posted April 25, 2023 While I am learning, I have this book also. It’s about 1/3 as thick. It is dated October 1900. What is the purpose of this book?
Komtur Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 12 hours ago, CRBeery said: While I am learning, I have this book also. It’s about 1/3 as thick. It is dated October 1900. What is the purpose of this book? Only the active officers (Rangliste des aktiven Dienststandes) are listed, the Reserve and Landwehr is missing.
Komtur Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, CRBeery said: He is gone in 1901. Checked every Wendt. Gone indeed 😇 See same ranklist page 195 (Gest. = Gestorben = dead): On 24/04/2023 at 12:35, saschaw said: How about Hauptmann Wendt from Landwehrbezirk I Breslau? In the 1900 Royal Prussian army rank list, he's listed with RAO4, KO3, KO4w, EK2w and LD1. An RKM3 is still missing, but he might have added that later... My next rank list is from 1902, in which I could not find him. Neither is he listed in the 1904/05 or 1908/09 issues of Deutscher Ordens-Almanach. Komtur, might you maybe have a look into the Ordens-Listen? (...) No RKM3 for Hauptmann Wendt to be found in the Ordenslisten and in the Staatsanzeiger. . Edited April 25, 2023 by Komtur 1
CRBeery Posted April 25, 2023 Author Posted April 25, 2023 Is there a list of the holders of the KO4 on the white ribbon? Maybe I can work backwards.
Komtur Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 On 26/04/2023 at 01:04, CRBeery said: Is there a list of the holders of the KO4 on the white ribbon? Maybe I can work backwards. They are listed in the Königlich Preußische Ordensliste. In that case, you need the edition of 1868 (with about 1.500 pages), because the Crown Order 4th class on the white ribbon on your bar should have been awarded for the war in 1866. But unfortunately all the names are listed by the award date of the same class. Therefore these awards on that special ribbon (about 130) are mixed up with the hundreds names of the awards on the normal blue (peacetime) ribbon and with the also hundreds of awards of the order with swords on the war time ribbon. It would take hours to search these 130 names out of the complete list for the Crown Order 4th class. Sorry, but that time I am not able to afford. 😔 May be in between this book is to be found online and you can search there yourself? 1
CRBeery Posted April 28, 2023 Author Posted April 28, 2023 18 hours ago, Komtur said: They are listed in the Königlich Preußische Ordensliste. In that case, you need the edition of 1868 (with about 1.500 pages), because the Crown Order 4th class on the white ribbon on your bar should have been awarded for the war in 1866. But unfortunately all the names are listed by the award date of the same class. Therefore these awards on that special ribbon (about 130) are mixed up with the hundreds names of the awards on the normal blue (peacetime) ribbon and with the also hundreds of awards of the order with swords on the war time ribbon. It would take hours to search these 130 names out of the complete list for the Crown Order 4th class. Sorry, but that time I am not able to afford. 😔 May be in between this book is to be found online and you can search there yourself? That would be too big of a project for someone who doesn’t own the bar to take on and I wasn’t asking you to do it. I will do it once I find the book. Thank you to all that have helped! I greatly appreciate it!
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