35 Karl Truppen Kreuz and counting. KTK.

[Farkas]

On 08/10/2023 at 01:04, Carlo said:

It will probably have been an officer who was not happy to have the same decoration as the troop and would have had it personalized, as happened with the kanonenkreuz

One of the things I like about these is the fact they were the same for all ranks but having said that this is very cool.

A bit like the aluminium version 👇  I guess this would be post war? or maybe period but made to be worn with dress uniform? Either way. I agree. Seems just a bit too flash for a simple soldiers frontline wear but who knows.

 

 

Cheers

tony 🍻

[Farkas]

Hello Gents,

 

I’m usually up overnight at least 2 nights a week, if I can I spend them on here learning a little bit more.

But all to often I get a bit of an OCD type fixation especially when I feel the answer is somewhere waiting to be found.

For this topic, I’ve spent months on and off trying to ID all the makers on the list I found elsewhere, with some success but still not all of them. Hence the big pause. I struggle with the thought of giving up… or did!
With help, I have identified all the makers that I have examples of. So until I have got any additional one or someone else posts on here another mark that they have… F’ the others on that previous list.

 

So I have offered myself, and accepted, a compromise. 🤝

A new list.

A GMIC list.

Verified with examples.

 

Amongst mine I have 7 different makers marks.

1. ☘️ (clover symbol) 

2. FA

3. GW

4. HMA

5. JC

6. MKT

7. W&A

 

1. ☘️ (clover symbol) 

The clover symbol was used by BSW.

BRÜDER SCHNEIDER A.G WIEN

2. FA

FRANZ ADLER METALLWARENFABRIK

3. GW

GYORFFY ES WOLF FEMIPARI RT.

4. HMA

HAUPTMUNZAMT

5. JC

JOHANN CHRISTELBAUR & SON

6.MKT

METALL-KUNSTSTOFF-TECHNIK

7. W&A

WINTER & ADLER, WIEN

 

I’ll leave it there for now, I’d hate to delete all the above by mistake, list with photos to follow.

 

Any comments, additions or corrections, complaints or other always welcomed.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

By the way…

I just googled JOHANN CHRISTELBAUR & SON and (😡) found nothing 🤷‍♂️ So for now I have doubts about this one (☹️) 

 

 

 

[Christian1962]

Hi Tony!

Johann Christlbauer was a well-known producer of high end quality medals, especially he produced a lot of silver medals for local fire brigades of towns and cities. They are known from the end of the 19th century and in the interwar period. I must confess that I don't know, how long the company existed. I will have a look if I will find a medal in my collection and post it here.

Regards

Christian

I just own one: Dienstbotenmedaille des Landes Oberösterreich:

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Christian1962

[Farkas]

33 minutes ago, Christian1962 said:

Hi Tony!

Johann Christlbauer was a well-known producer of high end quality medals, especially he produced a lot of silver medals for local fire brigades of towns and cities. They are known from the end of the 19th century and in the interwar period. I must confess that I don't know, how long the company existed. I will have a look if I will find a medal in my collection and post it here.

Regards

Christian

I just own one: Dienstbotenmedaille des Landes Oberösterreich:

 

 

Thanks Christian, that settles it for me.

Corroborates the few scraps I found. 👍

 

So Gents, did any of you know that Johann is an alternative for Josef? Because I didn’t have a clue 😊

 

My concern was I found Josef but he died in 1897, too early for our KTK’s. And I was looking for a possible son called Johann or anyone by that name.

 

Eventually, mercifully I might add, I realised Johann was Josef. Then I found reference to a commemorative medal produced by…

‘private Christelbauer mint of Austria’  in 1899, so that proved the business continued after Josef died in 1897.

 

With Christians existing knowledge of them , then it’s settled, 😁

 

I like the sound of 👇

JOHANN (JOSEF) CHRISTLBAUER MINT.

 

Cheers Gents

tony 🍻

 

[Farkas]

Hi Gents,

I finally got good enough pictures of the makers marks.

 

 

1. ☘️ (clover symbol) 

The clover symbol was used by BSW.

BRÜDER SCHNEIDER A.G WIEN

 

 

2. FA

FRANZ ADLER METALLWARENFABRIK

 

 

3. GW

GYORFFY ES WOLF FEMIPARI RT.

 

4. HMA

HAUPTMUNZAMT

 

 

5. JC

JOHANN CHRISTELBAUR & SON.

JOHANN (JOSEF) CHRISTLBAUER MINT.

 

 

6.MKT

METALL-KUNSTSTOFF-TECHNIK

 

 

7. W&A

WINTER & ADLER, WIEN

 

 

 

👆 I’ve still got 19 in the odds and sods section to look at , some have markings I need to work out.

 

 

tony 🍻

[graham]

Great information. Thanks.

[Stogieman]

Wow! Impressive group and work to get those images. Never owned one of these

[Farkas]

On 29/01/2024 at 15:11, Stogieman said:

Never owned one of these

Shocking! 😊

[Farkas]

Hi Gents,

we have an exclusive 👀

 

I had a new Karl Truppen Kreuz arrival today, nowadays it’s like buying a lottery ticket… I’m that excited to check for the makers mark.

 

Well Gents, we have a winner.

A ‘new’ mark for the

‘GMIC KTK Makers’ list..,

 

Excuse the poor pictures 👇

 

 

It wasn’t easy to make it out at first.
The mark is worn but I could see it was either…  

ZM  or  WZ , 

depending on which way up you read it.

 

It was tempting to just assume it was ZM for ‘zinc’ metal/material or similar and I admit I was about to give up, nothing else was apparent.  But thanks to you Gents and your previous input, I stopped thinking jewellers and started thinking maybe a foundry or metalworks.

 

I can’t prove it yet but I’m saying it’s 👇

 

Since 1923 known as ZM-Metal Ltd , I’m betting it’s them.

 

 

 

I can’t find as yet anything else.

Ideally, I’d like something more to support ZM-Metals existence before 1923, (though as it’s on a ‘later’ ribbon could it be made post 1923?)

or, confirmation of their use of this mark but I’ll bet my lunch money they made this.

 

As always Gents, any comments or corrections are appreciated.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

[TracA]

Tony,

 

Unfortunately I cannot contribute any knowledge, but I can say "great detective work!"

 

I certainly understand your lottery comment and share your excitement. When I purchase a Japanese order or medal, finally get it in hand, and discover a hallmark that did not show up in the seller's photos, then it is definitely a celebratory moment.

 

All the best,

 

Tracy

[Farkas]

47 minutes ago, TracA said:

Tony,

 

Unfortunately I cannot contribute any knowledge, but I can say "great detective work!"

 

I certainly understand your lottery comment and share your excitement. When I purchase a Japanese order or medal, finally get it in hand, and discover a hallmark that did not show up in the seller's photos, then it is definitely a celebratory moment.

 

All the best,

 

Tracy

👍👍
I’ve seen your enthusiasm 😊

I’ve been following your thread on the hallmarks, and it made me look at some photos I have of some of my small Japanese collection … 👇

I don’t know if you can see the marks

👆👇

 

 

I’d never noticed the marks before 😃

I’ve got to dig my ‘Japanese’ box out  and have a proper look at them all. I’ll make sure I put some better pictures on your topic asap. I’ve got a couple of ‘rising suns’ (7th & 8th) in lacquered boxes to show you too.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

 

 

[Christian1962]

8 hours ago, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

we have an exclusive 👀

 

I had a new Karl Truppen Kreuz arrival today, nowadays it’s like buying a lottery ticket… I’m that excited to check for the makers mark.

 

Well Gents, we have a winner.

A ‘new’ mark for the

‘GMIC KTK Makers’ list..,

 

Excuse the poor pictures 👇

 

 

It wasn’t easy to make it out at first.
The mark is worn but I could see it was either…  

ZM  or  WZ , 

depending on which way up you read it.

 

It was tempting to just assume it was ZM for ‘zinc’ metal/material or similar and I admit I was about to give up, nothing else was apparent.  But thanks to you Gents and your previous input, I stopped thinking jewellers and started thinking maybe a foundry or metalworks.

 

I can’t prove it yet but I’m saying it’s 👇

 

Since 1923 known as ZM-Metal Ltd , I’m betting it’s them.

 

 

 

I can’t find as yet anything else.

Ideally, I’d like something more to support ZM-Metals existence before 1923, (though as it’s on a ‘later’ ribbon could it be made post 1923?)

or, confirmation of their use of this mark but I’ll bet my lunch money they made this.

 

As always Gents, any comments or corrections are appreciated.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

 

Dear Tony,

please mind that Zagreb was called "Agram" during the Habsburg period until November 1918. I am not sure if a company working for the crown would have the used the name "Zagreb Metal"?

 

Kindest regards

Christian

[TracA]

13 hours ago, Farkas said:

👍👍
I’ve seen your enthusiasm 😊

I’ve been following your thread on the hallmarks, and it made me look at some photos I have of some of my small Japanese collection … 👇

I don’t know if you can see the marks

👆👇

 

 

I’d never noticed the marks before 😃

I’ve got to dig my ‘Japanese’ box out  and have a proper look at them all. I’ll make sure I put some better pictures on your topic asap. I’ve got a couple of ‘rising suns’ (7th & 8th) in lacquered boxes to show you too.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

 

 

 

Tony,

 

Unfortunately my old eyes don't let me see the marks in the pictures. However, I look forward to when you have more time for taking pictures and then posting them to the Show Your Japanese Medal Hallmarks & Maker's Marks thread.

 

Tracy

[Farkas]

On 09/03/2024 at 06:08, Christian1962 said:

 

Dear Tony,

please mind that Zagreb was called "Agram" during the Habsburg period until November 1918. I am not sure if a company working for the crown would have the used the name "Zagreb Metal"?

 

Kindest regards

Christian

Well that’s a shame, I’ve just lost my lunch money I guess….

& thanks Christian, I do need to get it right or there’s no point trying.

 

Back to google search for me 🍻

 

On 09/03/2024 at 17:28, TracA said:

 

Tony,

 

Unfortunately my old eyes don't let me see the marks in the pictures. However, I look forward to when you have more time for taking pictures and then posting them to the Show Your Japanese Medal Hallmarks & Maker's Marks thread.

 

Tracy

I know the feeling 🤓

I look forward to seeing what you make of them. 🍻

 

cheers both

tony

 

Edited March 10 by Farkas
Spelling

[Farkas]

Hi Gents,

re this new one…

 

I had concluded previously that it must be Zagreb Metal…

 

On 09/03/2024 at 06:08, Christian1962 said:

 

Dear Tony,

please mind that Zagreb was called "Agram" during the Habsburg period until November 1918. I am not sure if a company working for the crown would have the used the name "Zagreb Metal"?

 

Kindest regards

Christian

 

Thanks to Christians invaluable help once again 👆 , I started looking afresh and (I believe) I now have the correct ID for the maker with the ‘new to me’  MZ (not ZM) makers mark.

 

It didn’t help that it was reversible.

It also didn’t help that I ignored some of the lessons learned from my previous searches 🙈

 

The previous marks in this were all for large scale production facilities , the manufacturers marks were not listed as jewellers marks, noticeably none had any sort of border, the were simpler punch marks, the letters alone & indented.

 

This latest mark is in fact a bonafide, listed makers mark for a jewellers.

It has a rectangular border, the interior of which is all indented except the letters, they are in relief, ie themselves raised not punched.

 

The shape of the surround and the letters of a jewellers mark are combined to make unique designs.

So I checked lists thoroughly, through German and various other AH states as well as the Austrians before settling on one…

- There is no matching ZM.

- There is only one matching MZ amongst the few MZ marks, each clearly with different surrounds/features.

 

For example these other Austrian MZ marks each have their differences circled…

 

 

 

Enough of what it isn’t 👆

 

Time for what it is 👇

Barely visible in the flesh let alone below

 

I am open, as always, to correction but this time hopefully not, 🤞

 

Max Zirner, KuK court Jewellers.

Jewellery business active 1885 - 1924

Active business in Vienna and elsewhere until 1924 although from one source it appears he himself died in 1918.

A family business, his brother was also active previously but seems only until 1905, presumably when he himself died.

 

 

 

So Gents,

in my opinion, this is a new little addition to the story of the Karl Truppen Kreuz.

Certainly amongst English language information and amongst those (limited) foreign language records available to me, MZ is a previously unmentioned makers mark on a KTK.

 

Any thoughts welcome as always Gents.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

[1812 Overture]

I'll give you ten seconds to consider, send me ten Carl Legion crosses, otherwise...

[Stogieman]

HaHa!! Too funny!!

[kolbaro]

Hi Gents,

 

Can you please help me with the identification of this maker? 

 

 

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

[Farkas]

On 28/03/2024 at 21:02, kolbaro said:

Hi Gents,

 

Can you please help me with the identification of this maker? 

 

 

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

I Want It!!  
 

Hi Tom,

thanks for showing us your example 🍻

 

As you probably realise that one is not on our list… yet 😊

So I now know what I’ll be looking for tonight… fingers crossed I’ll get an id for it, I’ll keep you posted.

 

cheers

tony 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇬🇧

[Farkas]

On 28/03/2024 at 21:02, kolbaro said:

Hi Gents,

 

Can you please help me with the identification of this maker? 

 

 

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

 

Hello Gents, Tom,

I’m gonna throw this out and see what I get back…. 🤷‍♂️
 

I’m currently thinking 

WB is ‘Weiss, Budapest”

From Wikipedia :
‘The Weiss Manfréd Acél- és Fémművek("Manfréd Weiss Steel and Metal Works"), or colloquially Csepel Művek ("Csepel Works") was one of the largest machine factories in Hungary, located on Csepelisland in the southern part of Budapest, founded in 1892. It was the second largest industrial enterprise in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, and the biggest industrial enterprise in the Hungarian half of the Empire. It played an integral role in the heavy industry and military production of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. Founded by Baron Manfréd Weiss of Csepel, an industrialist of Jewish origin, by the time of World War I the company was one of largest defense contractors in Austria-Hungary,[1] producing all types of equipment, from airplanes and munitions to automotive engines, bicycles Csepel bicycle and cars. ‘

Not got much else to support it, apart from it fits and I’ve not found anything else that does. & I have tried! 

 

All thoughts welcome as always 👍

Need some Zzz’s.

 

cheers 

tony 🍻

[Carlo]

Hi everyone,
I would like in my small way to add something to this great work by Farkas in collecting and identifying the various KTK producers.

Among the various markings I did not see the KS mark.

So here are some photos of one of my KTK marked KS, the mark used by Karneth & Sohn.

 

Carlo

[Farkas]

On 25/08/2024 at 17:16, Carlo said:

Hi everyone,
I would like in my small way to add something to this great work by Farkas in collecting and identifying the various KTK producers.

Among the various markings I did not see the KS mark.

So here are some photos of one of my KTK marked KS, the mark used by Karneth & Sohn.

 

Carlo

Thanks Carlo, that’s a nice one too,

the others went for plain letters.

 

& it’s great to get another addition to the GMIC list.

 

thanks again

 

cheers 🍻

tony

 

 

[Carlo]

1 hour ago, Farkas said:

Thanks Carlo, that’s a nice one too,

the others went for plain letters.

 

& it’s great to get another addition to the GMIC list.

 

thanks again

 

cheers 🍻

tony

 

 

You're welcome, if I can contribute in any way I'm always happy to do it!

 

cheers 🍻

Carlo

[ChrisKelly]