SS Heimwehr ID tag

[Avitas]

Hello there,

Picked up this die stamped SS-Heimwehr dog tag / id tag and was wondering if anybody knows about the SS-Heimwehr. I purchased this from a reputable dealer and I believe it is a good one, but any ideas on originality and the numbering/info on the markings are very welcome.

Thanks,

Pat

[Avitas]

The blank reverse...

[Avitas]

No ideas out there on this one? It seems like a good one made of good material and die-forged (stamped? Are only hollow-backs stamped? or can solid ones be stamped as well, or is that called forging?). Any background on it (SS Heimwehr and the number ID system) and opinions on originality are very helpful. Please leave any comments you can and thanks in advance.

Cheers

Pat

[Avitas]

Hello again,

After much study, I still haven't seen another example of this SS Heimwehr (Danzig) dog tag. As of 1939 when it was formed it had 1550 members, so the number 766 certainly fits in there, maybe in company A as it is marked "A 766". It is 71mm by 51mm for dimensions, and non-magnetic, solid and stamped. The details are extremely crisp and the edges are stamped perfectly. This came from a very knowledgeable collector of SS items and he guaranteed its authenticity, I would just like to see another example if anyone has one, or maybe another expert opinion on it. I would greatly appreciate any help on this rare item.

Thanks,

Pat

[PKeating]

The "A" is the issuee's blood group while 766 is his Stammroll number. Companies were numbered. There is however no reference to the wearer's company. Of what material is your EKM made? It looks like brass. One would expect land forces EKM to be made of aluminium, steel or zinc.

The cadre of SS-Heimwehr Danzig came from SS-Totenkopf-Standarte 4 Ostmark, which was part of the Totenkopfverb?nde. While SS-TK-Standarte 4 Ostmark was formed in Linz in September 1938, a new Sturmbann was raised in Berlin the following month: SS-Sturmbann G?tze, which was detached from the SS-TK-St 4 in July 1939 and sent to Danzig. SS-Sturmbann G?tze had three rifle companies and a machine gun company.

The ORBAT of SS-Heimwehr-Danzig was as follows:

Stab/SS-Heimwehr Danzig

1./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

2./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

3./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

4./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

13./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

14./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

15./SS-Heimwehr Danzig

So, SS-Heimwehr Danzig consisted of SS-Sturmbann G?tze, the Panzerabwehr-Lehrsturm der SS-Totenkopfstandarten and about 500 volunteers from Danzig itself. In other words, of the roughly 1550 men of the SS-Heimwehr Danzig, only a third or so were local men. After the conquest of Poland, the SS-Heimwehr Danzig was taken into the 3. SS-Division Totenkopf, forming the cadre of various sub-units of the division.

The SS-TK men from SS-Sturmbann G?tze and the SS-TK Anti-Tank Demonstration Detachment would have had Erkennungsmarke (EKM) issued by their parent units, which in these cases came under the SS-Totenkopfverb?nde. In October 1939, the SS-Totenkopf-Rekruten-Standarte (Dachau) was formed with four battalion-sized sub-units but this is by-the-by.

However, the Danzigers who volunteered for the SS-Heimwehr Danzig underwent training in and around Danzig so did the SS-HW Danzig issue EKM at unit level to these men or did they receive EKM through the SS-TK administration? One aspect I find strange is the absence from this EKM of any company designation. If not indiscreet questions, from whom did you purchase this EKM and how much did you pay for it?

PK

Edited August 2, 2006 by PKeating

[Avitas]

Hi there,

I will try to answer the questions you asked Pkeating,

First of all, I am not quite sure on the material, it could be brass, tombak or some other mix of copper and zinc, and it is very solid and quality metal. Next, I bought this off of Walter, my good collector/dealer here in Kelowna, everything I have posted from him has been original so I believe this is too. I paid $50 for it 3 years ago, but he gives me great deals on most items (close to half of internet prices!) as he is a fellow collector and wants to spread the hobby.

I have a guess about the SS-Heimwehr tag, it could be an early tag from before it was absorbed into the SS-Totenkopf. On the reverse there are horizontal scratches where the division ID usually is. Perhaps this was an unissued tag, but it does have the blood type and Stammroll number, so I am not quite sure. I will try to get more info from Walter about it. Any more help is really welcome on this interesting piece.

Thanks,

Pat

[PKeating]

Hi there,

I will try to answer the questions you asked Pkeating,

First of all, I am not quite sure on the material, it could be brass, tombak or some other mix of copper and zinc, and it is very solid and quality metal.

Hmmmmm...

Next, I bought this off of Walter, my good collector/dealer here in Kelowna, everything I have posted from him has been original so I believe this is too. I paid $50 for it 3 years ago, but he gives me great deals on most items (close to half of internet prices!) as he is a fellow collector and wants to spread the hobby.

Uhuh...

I have a guess about the SS-Heimwehr tag, it could be an early tag from before it was absorbed into the SS-Totenkopf. On the reverse there are horizontal scratches where the division ID usually is.

Who told you that the reverse of EKM carried divisional details? The SS-Heimwehr Danzig was formed from two SS-TK units with about five-hundred volunteers from Freistadt Danzig itself.

Perhaps this was an unissued tag, but it does have the blood type and Stammroll number, so I am not quite sure. I will try to get more info from Walter about it. Any more help is really welcome on this interesting piece.

An unissued EKM would not bear Stammroll and blood group details. The SS-Heimwehr Danzig might have had EKM made up locally from whatever alloy the supplier chose and might have departed from regulations in omitting member #766's company details. But I doubt it.

In any case, I think member #766 would have been a trained soldier from one of the two units forming the cadre of SS-Heimwehr Danzig so he would surely have had an EKM issued by his training or parent unit.

As for anymore help with this piece, well, all I can tell you is "not in my collection". Fortunately, you are only $50.00 down on the deal and if your local friendly dealer-cum-collector has been selling you original stuff at half-price, don't bother him about this piece of junk. You've made many times the loss back in what you have been buying at half-price.

Regards,

PK

[Avitas]

Hello.

I am sorry if I am not an expert, but I am trying to learn and sometimes I get confused on certain information. So the almost mocking tone of the last post is really not necessary, we are all "gentlemen" here and if I don't possess the same amount of knowledge as you please don't look down on me, as perhaps when I get 20 or 30 years older it will be a different story.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the help, but it just seemed a little much.

Back to the ID tag, I am not writing it off yet as it still has a chance of being original, there is nothing truly damning about it yet, but I will definitely keep trying to find out the details of this piece,

Thanks,

Pat

[PKeating]

I wasn't mocking you at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I was merely offering you another perspective on your relationship with this friendly fellow Walter. There's no such thing as a free lunch, Pat, as I am sure you know. If the EKM turns out to be real, then that will be wonderful. I am certainly not an expert but I know a thing or two about EKM and this one worries me, that's all. If it is real, then I will learned something.

Regards,

PK

[Avitas]

No problem, don't worry about it

Hopefully someone with some new information on this EKW can help us out a little further, but thanks again for the great information so far. I am not the greatest in identifying metals, so any pointers are welcome also.

Cheers,

Pat

[Chris Boonzaier]

A silly question... I always thought the germans only issued dogtags after the outbreak of the war, and that guys serving prewar did not have them?

[Hauptmann]

The blank reverse...

Hi Pat,

Some funny things about the back here that show up in the pic. Not funny bad... just funny unusual. If you look just above the center slot it looks as if part of a swastika was scratched there... perhaps all of it at one time and just scratched out or worn down on some combination over time.

To the left and slightly below the top hole is what looks very much like a black stahlhelm. If you then look just to the right of the hole at the same level as the stahlhelm you'll see where it looks like someone scratched or engraved the letter A as in the bloodgroup on the front of the tag.

Also, if you look just above the little stahlhelm you'll see what looks like another much smaller swastika. Although I only found that when I saved the pic over and blew it up on my laptop.

Might be just the kinds of things some SS member might have "doodled" on some of his equipment where it would likely not be seen... and since they were all nazi symbols I doubt anyone would have said a word.

Just a thought.

Dan

[Avitas]

Hello Dan,

I took this out and had a look, and the Stahlhelm is even more defined under a magnifying glass, with pretty distinct lines that look fairly well engraved, so good eye! I didn;t even notice it before, and the "A" on the other side could be an "H" as well, pretty hard to tell. There are defininitely some unexplained scratchings on the back as well, as a couple do look an awful lot like swastikas, and when put under a glaring light the "Y" symbol with the line through the middle is quite evident below the third slit in the center. Some great eagle-eye work there Dan, and maybe someone else can explain these markings.

Cheers,

Pat

Hi Pat,

Some funny things about the back here that show up in the pic. Not funny bad... just funny unusual. If you look just above the center slot it looks as if part of a swastika was scratched there... perhaps all of it at one time and just scratched out or worn down on some combination over time.

To the left and slightly below the top hole is what looks very much like a black stahlhelm. If you then look just to the right of the hole at the same level as the stahlhelm you'll see where it looks like someone scratched or engraved the letter A as in the bloodgroup on the front of the tag.

Also, if you look just above the little stahlhelm you'll see what looks like another much smaller swastika. Although I only found that when I saved the pic over and blew it up on my laptop.

Might be just the kinds of things some SS member might have "doodled" on some of his equipment where it would likely not be seen... and since they were all nazi symbols I doubt anyone would have said a word.

Just a thought.

Dan

[Avitas]

I noticed (with a tip-off from Dan) fellow member Rosenberg's recently posted Restunginspektion dog tag ("Help with Dogtag" post in the Heer forum) and it has exactly the same colouration and wear patterns as this SS-Heimwehr, and appears to be of the same material. Maybe if Rosenberg reads this he can post his pics (and maybe one of the reverse as well) for comparison with this one, and some measurements would help out as well, as it appears to be a similar dogtag in terms of colour and wear and patina.

Thanks in advance,

Pat

Edited September 1, 2006 by Avitas

[Kev in Deva]

Hi there,

First of all, I am not quite sure on the material, it could be brass, tombak or some other mix of copper and zinc, and it is very solid and quality metal. Thanks,

Pat

Hallo Pat, just a quick question, if its made of Brass / Messing, would it not require some effort to break it, if and when German Graves Registration Personel or fellow comrades were removing half the disc from a comrades body??

From the few I have handeled they all seem to be made of a soft, durable material.

Kevin in Deva.

[Guest WAR LORD]

I think I would have my gravest suspsions of this piece. They are normally in a zink matterial, and as Kevin has said breakable. These tags have been heavilly copied. Both from original tags that were unissuded and then stamped to tags that have been made up from scratch.Chris B has also made a very relavant point about the pre war use of tags.

[PKeating]

I share Chris Ailsby's concerns. You ought to take this back to the chap who sold it to you for a refund.

PK

[Avitas]

Well, it would appear this is the first "fake" piece from my good friend who I have had nothing but originals from. I will probably just throw it in my repro drawer as I didn't pay that much for it, and who knows, maybe some more info will come out (maybe an unofficial pre-war militia tag or something) and it will be redeemed, but until then it appears the jury has spoken.

Thanks for the help so far on this one gents and please add any more info if you have some,

Pat

[Kev in Deva]

and who knows, maybe some more info will come out (maybe an unofficial pre-war militia tag or something) and it will be redeemed, but until then it appears the jury has spoken.

Thanks for the help so far on this one gents and please add any more info if you have some,

Pat

Pat

if its in brass / tomback, etc.. its an out and out FAKE, SS items could not / never be classed as "an unofficial pre-war militia tag or something" so ya gonna have to bite the bullet

and accept its a "POST War unofficial Repro / Fantasy Piece made to catch the unwary, and mis-informed tag" God knows it happens to the best of us sooner or later

Kevin in Deva

Edited September 10, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Avitas]

Thanks for the clarifications gents, I just had such a good feeling on this one Well, I didn't pay much so I think I'll just keep it for display purposes.

Cheers,

Pat

[PKeating]

The fact that you didn't pay much to begin with should have rung warning bells. No such thing as a free lunch where dealers are concerned.

PK

[Guest WAR LORD]

I have to agree with PK, no free lunch. Also I have seen this type on a site that sells reproductions. It is sold as such.

[Neil]

I know this is an old topic ut what are your thoughts on this?

https://www.ioffer.com/i/583389351

neil

[Jock Auld]

Neil,

I just don't like the look of it, I can offer no sientific reason with fonts etc.

I have a handfull of blank original blank disks so all you would need is a set of stamps these days (I have them too).

To produce it, stamp it and stick it in the garden for a couple of months and 'bobs your uncle' a perfect fake!

I have not tried this yet but I may do it as an experiment and document the progress obviously after I would mark it as a copy.

It has got to be one of the simplest items that the fakers can target so you would have to have a lot of faith in the seller.

It is a bit of a gamble and it is not cheap.

Jock

[Neil]

Thanks jock, that's really helpful. The seller says he bought it at the warstore in South Africa - basically a shop in there equivalent of Londons imperial war museum. If it was original what would you expect to pay? And if not, how much?

Thanks neil