Rising from the ashes or going to the stars: Mecklenburg Orders

[laurentius]

Dear fellow collectors,

 

I was able to purchase this unmarked Greifenorden Ritterkreuz (although clearly a Rose production). When doing my research I stumbled upon two different numbers for the total amount of awarded crosses. One quotation was roughly 1000, the other was the far more precise 1672. Does anyone know why these differ and which one (if any) is correct? I wonder if the number 1000 accounts for the Ritterkreuze, whilst the number 1672 might be the total amount of awards (knights, commanders, grandcommanders etc.)

 

Thanks in advance and kind regards, Laurentius

 

[pinpon590]

Hi !

 

For the Ritterkreuz, Nimmergut says 423 awards beetween 1884 and 1918 (include 137 for Strelitz, beetween 1904-1918).

 

 

[laurentius]

That would mean we now have three different numbers, ranging wildly between 423 and 1672 (a factor of four!). I must say that 423 seems low, given the frequency with which these pieces appear on the market. They aren't common, but certainly not as rare as the number 423 would suggest. Are the rolls from Mecklenburg perhaps incomplete?

 

On the other hand an argument could be made for such a low number given the fact that the two Mecklenburg grandduchies were largely agricultural and some of the least developed areas of imperial Germany. An abscence of artists, industrialist and a larger upper-middle class would explain why so few of them would have been awarded. 

 

Does Nimmergut give a differentiation between awards to native Mecklenburgers and others ( I know of atleast 13 Dutch recipients and an Austrian colonel)?

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[pinpon590]

5 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Does Nimmergut give a differentiation between awards to native Mecklenburgers and others ( I know of atleast 13 Dutch recipients and an Austrian colonel)?

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

 

No, not really more information on Nimmergut's...

 

[laurentius]

4 minutes ago, pinpon590 said:

 

No, not really more information on Nimmergut's...

 

 

Doesn't zuzüglich mean 'to add' which would bring the number to 560 awards between 1884 and 1918? This number would mean 12,41 awards per year for Mecklenburg-Schwerin (423/36) and 9,78 awards per year for Mecklenburg-Strelitz (137/14). This seems logical, given that Mecklenburg-Strelitz was a tad smaller than Mecklenburg-Schwerin. A number of 560 seems more logical given their frequency of appearing on the market but is far off from other sources (also to be found on this forum). I wonder what the reason is for these different numbers?

 

Is there anyone who could eloborate on the 'nachverliehungen' as far as 1941? 

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[pinpon590]

5 minutes ago, laurentius said:

 

Doesn't zuzüglich mean 'to add' which would bring the number to 560 awards between 1884 and 1918? 

 

Yes you're right 

Edited December 5, 2023 by pinpon590

[laurentius]

i came across a piece written by Eric Ludvigsen for the Orders and Medals Society of America. Although his list is incomplete he gives 344 Ritterkreuze between 1884 and 1896. Of these 180 were given to Germans (people from Mecklenburg counted together with the other German states) and 164 to foreigners (110 Russians, 1 dutchman, 33 french etc.). If Nimmergut is correct that would mean that Mecklenburg-Schwerin only awarded 79 more between 1896 and 1918 which seems most unlikely (given developments within Mecklenburg and Germany as a whole). Interesting is that there have only been four Dutch awards until 1896.

 

 

If Ludvigsen is correct we can probably do away with the number that Nimmergut puts up. This means that either the number 1000 or 1672 could still be true.

[Herman]

Laurentius,  I checked my own records, the Ritterkreuz is awarded to 19 Dutch recipients. Furthermore I found 4 Dutch recipients of the Ritterkreuz with Crown,  5 Honor crosses, 1 Grand Commander and 8 Grand Crosses. I am sure I missed a few.

 

I have in my collection a set of three awarded to a Dutch officer identified to Colonel Clavareau.

 

Regards

Herman 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Herman

[91-old-inf-reg]

4 hours ago, Herman said:

Laurentius,  I checked my own records, the Ritterkreuz is awarded to 19 Dutch recipients. Furthermore I found 4 Dutch recipients of the Ritterkreuz with Crown,  5 Honor crosses, 1 Grand Commander and 8 Grand Crosses. I am sure I missed a few.

 

I have in my collection a set of three awarded to a Dutch officer identified to Colonel Clavareau.

 

Regards

Herman 

I remember seeing a post about this a while ago and let me just say how extremely impressive this is! This is probably the rarest set of awards I’ve ever seen! To have 1 of only 4 awarded in the Netherlands! Amazing! Congratulations!

 

best,

Dan

[laurentius]

6 hours ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

To have 1 of only 4 awarded in the Netherlands

 

Clavareau has the Ritterkreuz of which there were 19, not 4. Still impressive ofcourse.

 

11 hours ago, Herman said:

Laurentius,  I checked my own records, the Ritterkreuz is awarded to 19 Dutch recipients. Furthermore I found 4 Dutch recipients of the Ritterkreuz with Crown,  5 Honor crosses, 1 Grand Commander and 8 Grand Crosses. I am sure I missed a few.

 

How did you compile these records? Did you use obituaries, Dutch records or Mecklenburg rolls? 

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Herman]

Hello Laurentius, 

 

Our fellow GMIC member Seeheld has the Mecklenburg rolls available,  but I did not use them.

 

I checked the Officers Name & Rankinglists of the Dutch Army, the Adelborstenboek and also Delpher kranten. Therefore I assume it is not 100% ironclad. 

 

Regards 

Herman 

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Delpher kranten.

 

Interesting that you should mention Delpher, I was browsing that book today and I found only one recipient of the MGS (your colonel). This was the book of officers between 1900 and 1936. Maybe the previous recipients retired or where never in the armed forces.

 

I will contact Seeheld for the rolls.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Herman]

The Name & Rankinglists from 1940 and older years are available online at www.nlme.nl. If you type in 'Gr5' or 'Griffioen' you will find a bunch of officers awarded with this order. Most of them show up around 1901, the year Queen Wilhelmina married to Prince Hendrik.

 

Regards 

Herman