Turkey Turkish awards to Germans

[dond]

Did a soldier have to recieve the Liakat medal before he could recieve the Iron Half Moon (aka Gallipoli Star)? Is there a relationship between the two simular to the EK2/1?

Thanks

Don

[W McSwiggan]

Did a soldier have to recieve the Liakat medal before he could recieve the Iron Half Moon (aka Gallipoli Star)?  Is there a relationship between the two simular to the EK2/1?

Thanks

Don

←

Hi Don,

High to Low:

1. Gold Imtiyaz Medal ? Highest ranking military decoration of the Ottoman Empire.

2. Gold Liyakat Medal

3. Silver Imtiyaz Medal

4. Silver Liyakat Medal

5. 1915 War Medal (Iron Half Moon, Gallipoli Star) ? entry level gallantry award.

My references indicate that they were awarded in order from low to high with each an effective prerequisite for the next higher. The Golden Medals were quite infrequently awarded.

Regards,

Wayne

[dond]

Thanks Wayne. I have an Iron Half Moon. How hard is it to find a Liakat in silver and what do they go for?

thanks again.

Don

[W McSwiggan]

Thanks Wayne.  I have an Iron Half Moon.  How hard is it to find a Liakat in silver and what do they go for?

thanks again.

Don

←

Don,

The truth is - I have no clue...

Hope some other "collecting" member can help you - I am a reader only I'm afraid.

Wayne

[Guest Rick Research]

There were exceptions: some officers received DIRECT awards of a Liakat or Imtiaz without any TWM. Those tended to be by rank, and for passing through staff types, however.

Normally, the progression above is absolutely correct.

Here is a real silver Imtiaz Medal in Silver with Sabers Bar compared for size with the laughably undersized and always base metal (I have yet to see one in real silver-- they are generally made from some weird Ottoman non-tarnishing grayish alloy that I call "recycled tunafish cans" metal) Liakat Medals in "Silver" with Sabers Bars. The Liakat iin the middle was Austrian made and bears their wartime base metal "*" hallmark. The one on the right-- although on a "close enough" Bavarian Luitpold Army Jubilee Medal ribbon, is the ISSUED type. Note the elongated sabers (better metal than the medal itself, but still some never-tarnishing alloy) and the hideous snipped TIN suspension.

Prices are completely irrational. For Germans (not ordinary Turks) a TWM was nothing much more than a campaign medal by 1918. The pathetic looking Liakat, usually cheaper than the flashy enamelled and often real silver German jeweler made TWMs, was the equivalent of an EK1-- and an Imtiaz compares roughly to the Prussian HHO3X.

[Guest Rick Research]

Here are a couple of German medal bars, putting the puny Liakat in perspective:

Top bar belonged to Konteradmiral (V) August B?ning (1891-1964), who got it (and, conversely, the fashionably oversized Medjidie Order Vth Class with Sabers in the same "recycled tunafish can" metal-- cannot be polished, but never tarnishes) as a Marine-Zahlmeister with the Tigris-Euphrates River Flotilla. He was still wearing the Turkish issued Liakat Sabers Bar in 1924, but either it broke or he just preferred the German-made replacement on this medal bar. The Turkish-made Sabers Bars "slide" up and down on the ribbons.

The lower bar (in my cousin Ted's collection and scanned by me some years ago) was awarded to a former sailor who went on to serve with the Hamburg Harbor Police. Whether it was a pre-WW1 "official visit" award, or a wartime non-combatant award is now unknown. Before the war, Laiakats were often given to Petty Officers and NCOs, since there was no other award appropriate, when visiting German officers were decorated.

BTW, Imtiaz Medals with Sabers Bars are orders of magnitude rarer than Liakats-- I have seen less than 10 in 30 years. As for Medjidie (and Osmanie) Orders with Sabers...

I know of a higher class Medjidie that went in a group to my late Imperial mentor... otherwise, THIS is it in 30 years that I ever saw come out for sale.

[Stogieman]

Liaket Medals will run anywhere from $75-$150 (loose) depending on buyer, seller, time of day. I've seen a couple go in excess of a $100(USD) recently.

The Imtiaz, if you can find one, will se t you back substantially more. Here's an image of a cased one I have never been able to replace. One of my true "errors" in parting with it.

[dond]

Thanks for the info guys.

Don

[Stogieman]

There's a single silber Liaket Medal on eBay-USA in WW1 German Category. It has the original ribbon and a saber/battle bar. ~$150 current bid.

[dond]

It went for $210.00

[JensF.]

My only little Silver Liakat Medal with mark "925":

[Chris Boonzaier]

My only little Silver Liakat Medal with mark "925":

surely not the right HK cross !!??

[JensF.]

No, its the "widows cross".

[HeikoGrusdat]

"widows cross" could have been possible for soldiers as well if they had lost a brother or father.... but in combination with the other war awards on this bar he must have had a normal hc with swords AND a widows cross or ONLY a hc with swords...

Heiko

[Stogieman]

Well, speaking of Turkish....... this little gem has a real (German) silver Liaket Medal with the nicest Saber/Date Bar I've ever seen.... overshadowed by it's neighbor, unfortunately....

[Stogieman]

OK, it's hard to see in the scan, but if you look very closely, you will see a small flat bar across the bottom of the Liaket spange. My best guess is this was done to prevent the TWM next to it from snagging/tearing at the spange as the TWM is (and has been) on and off the bar often enough to have been repaired at least once. The current pin is there (vertical safety pin soldered on!!) but the catch has long since been snapped off.

The thing I cannot figure out with this one is when/why he would sometimes wear it on a pocket and sometimes on the bar!!

[David Gregory]

OK, it's hard to see in the scan, but if you look very closely, you will see a small flat bar across the bottom of the Liaket spange. My best guess is this was done to prevent the TWM next to it from snagging/tearing at the spange as the TWM is (and has been) on and off the bar often enough to have been repaired at least once. The current pin is there (vertical safety pin soldered on!!) but the catch has long since been snapped off.

The thing I cannot figure out with this one is when/why he would sometimes wear it on a pocket and sometimes on the bar!!

Ribbon bar and all pin-back awards for service dress, medal bar and all accoutrements for full dress.

[Stogieman]

Ahhh, Thank you David! I have always wondered with the TWM what the "scoop" was! You'll get a similar situation with ribbon bars. Many period photos of a soldier wearing the star on his tunic and the ribbon bar does not have the matching ribbon. Many people do not realize this was actually a ribboned award. Many Thanks!

[JensF.]

"widows cross" could have been possible for soldiers as well if they had lost a brother or father.... but in combination with the other war awards on this bar he must have had a normal hc with swords AND a widows cross or ONLY a hc with swords...

Heiko

I know. Maybe someone replaced the FKK with it as a special memory or something...

[Bob Hunter]

Rick, that Imtiaz in silver is most impressive. Very high quality. Is it Turkish or German made?

[Guest Rick Research]

It's a Turkish beaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuty. Every single literal piece is stamped with microscopic silver hallmarks in both Arabic squiggles and the European finenesses:

[attachmentid=18002]

THAT is a 900 times size enlargement!

It arrived (Thanks Jeff Floyd! ) on the 75th "ANZAC Day" in 1990 and I watched the last parade of Australian and Turkish veterans (a number wearing these) on TV as I opened the package.

Memories.

[kunsho]

Liy?kat Medal

As part of a German medal bar...silver Liy?kat Medal with swords (and 1332/1916 dated bar). German manufactured type.

Best regards

Matthias

[Stogieman]

Greetings Matthias, nice bar with an unusual style to it. I like how they attached the swords bar!