EK 1914 1914 Clasp to 1870 EK

[Gordon Williamson]

Obverse

[Gordon Williamson]

Reverse

[Gordon Williamson]

Now, the reason for my post and something I hope Brian may be able to comment on as I know he has an original in his collection.

I've noticed on the few of these that I know of with some form of provenance that there is a certain characteristic to the maker mark.

[Gordon Williamson]

Easier to see when turned into negative form. The crescent moon silver stamp before the crown is slightly misshapen so that the curved outer portion of the moon to the extreme left is actually a straight line. I am sure that from the images I can recall of Brian's piece, it has the same slighly mis-shapen moon. Can you confirm this Brian ?

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

How'd you guess this would catch my eye

[Tom Y]

My pin type Spange. With all the brouhaha lately I'm glad to see the same type crescent. Obverse.

[Tom Y]

Reverse.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Look also at the 'H'. Almost a little hump forming the horizontal stroke.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes, Tom, I am convinced that the pins were perfectly legitmate extensions for existing medal bars to avoid taking apart any ribbons to attach piece.

[Christophe]

Hi Gordon,

Very interesting thread !!!

I'm more than interested in knowing why the "Wagner" name seems to appear in double on the back of your clasp.

Is it something already noticed ?

Is there any known reason ?

Ch.

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Gordon,

Very interesting thread !!!

I'm more than interested in knowing why the "Wagner" name seems to appear in double on the back of your clasp.

Is it something already noticed ?

Is there any known reason ?

Ch.

Yes, the mark has been double struck. Not uncommon with marks that are stamped by hand where the stamp has moved stlightly when it has been struck. You can just see an element of this same effect around the 800 mark on Brian's ( on the negative pic)

[Christophe]

Yes, I noticed this also.

Interesting to know, as I would be delighted to have one in my collection... in the future.

Many thanks for your answer.

Ch.

[Paul R]

I read somewhere that these were pretty much inobtainable!!! What would be a fair market price for one?

Nice find guys!!!

PAul

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

The very good copies go consistently for 500 Euros.

[Christophe]

Brian,

What do you mean by "copies" ?

Ch.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

There are some fakes out there. I didn't keep any photos but beware the 'little' pictures of these clasps on eBay.

[Christophe]

I would not have the idea to buy one original one on eBay... I certainly would take more guaranties...

BTW, what is now the market price of an original one ?

Has someone already seen one original for sale at Detlev Niemann ?

Ch.

[Stogieman]

Detlev has sold about 2 originals... but the last time I discussed this piece with him, he is shying away from them as much as the rest of us. The copies are just too good these days. I would not touch one of these without some iron-clad provenance. I've only handled 3 or 4 real ones over my entire collecting career. However, superb fake ones can be had on any major auction house (on-line or fixed) on a weekly basis!

[Christophe]

For information, what were the prices of the two sold by Detlev ? And when ?

Ch.

[Biro]

......I've noticed on the few of these that I know of with some form of provenance that there is a certain characteristic to the maker mark....

Gordon

This is a very interesting observation regarding the crescent moon....

I have devoted an enormous amount of time to studying these Weiderholungsspangen after (apparently) being burnt by one a year or so ago, but I confess I lack most of the credentials required to come up with some sort of definitive statement that would convince any of you much more advanced collectors what should be considered original and what shouldn't.

After studying some 20 different images of examples of these rare pieces owned by friends and forum members alike, what I can offer is a substantial list of inconsistancies between pieces baring the Joh Wagner mark..... including different spacings, missing 'periods', and differing letter formations in the makers name, address, or silver content markings.

There is however one slightly alarming consistancy.... the obverse characteristics (and I've studied dates, crowns, W's, right down to the pebble formations) are IMO indisputably identical. I would point out that I don't have dimensions or weights on any of these pieces yet - they are photo based observations only.

I am very interested to read your comment about examples you have seen with 'some form of provenance' .... as these examples would constitute as close as we have to 'the definitive original'.

I guess at some point I'll post my studies and observations for you all to comment on, but in the meantime, are you able to confirm whether

(1) the example you have posted above is one of these particular provenanced pieces and also

(2) whether the example pictured in your book (which forms part of my study) could also be construed as having any form of provenance.... I have to say that from the picture, the crescent moon does not particularly appear to fit the 'straight line' scenario you offered above, but that could well be the picture.

thanks kindly

Marshall

(for Christophe.... these are the last two examples offered by Niemann but don't offer any clues unfortunately)

[Blitz]

Here are pictures of another Spange that I posted in WAF, but I can only post the link as my picture space is full..

http://www.milshop.de/shop/bilder/5048/page_01.htm

[Christophe]

Marshall

(for Christophe.... these are the last two examples offered by Niemann but don't offer any clues unfortunately)

Marshall,

Many thanks ofr the pics. Interesting to see one on a button... By chance, do you know what the price of the "button" one was ?

Cheers.

Ch.

[Biro]

...Many thanks ofr the pics. Interesting to see one on a button... By chance, do you know what the price of the "button" one was?....

Sorry, no - but from memory, neither examples price was particularly 'over the top'.....

Marshall

[Christophe]

Thanks, Marshall.

I'll open eyes when I see one.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Gordon Williamson]

Marshall,

You are absolutely correct in that this is a very, very tricky award and as Rick has rightly said, one that even experienced dealers have begun to avoid. In terms of mistrust its probably in the same league as the Godet Oakleaves !!

I must admit that the deformed moon is something I only noticed recently, at least in the sense that the couple of examples I know of with reasonable provenance have this same feature.

Provenance is of course in itself a difficult issue in the sense of what is acceptable. To me the only sure provenance is finding photographic evidence of the same actual piece being worn ( matching scratches, dings or other identifiable features ). Anything else is a case of taking things on trust and is therefore of little real value.

The piece I started the thead with has no provenance as such, I was simply interested in the fact that the deformed moon on the makers mark matches a couple of examples that I do trust and believe in.

Bear in mind of course that 1870 pieces were still being legitimately made in the 3rd Reich period ( to include the Grand Cross) so it may well be that all these pieces we see with apparently matching obverses but differing reverses/ maker marks etc are "orginal" ( in the sense of not being "fakes") but made at differing periods between 1870 and 1945.