20 place ribbon bar ! Please help

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hello all,

here is a wonderful looking 20 place ribbon bar!!!! It is the first one I have ever seen with these very small ribbons on it... the complete bar is about 25cm long, each ribbon is only 7mm wide !!! the ribbons do not glow under blacklight and none of the used materials do glow under blacklight , there are signs of wear and age under the EK and the swords - it seems to be an old one.

But as I have never seen these range of awards I need your help - for example, what is the black ribbon (4), what is the last ribbon??? First 10 are prussia awards, then there are 10 more from other german states and countries.... note again the bavarian peacetime MVO on a large bar.

Now its your turn, any help is welcome!!!

thanks

Heiko

[HeikoGrusdat]

and the reverse...

[Stogieman]

Shame on you Heiko, you should have let the auction run it's course. Naughty, naughty boy buying "off-line" from an eBay seller!

The black ribbon could be being utilized to represent the Johanniter Order for this very naughty, way out of regulations bar. I happened to like it, despite the fact that the seller never bothered to post a photograph of the back in his sales listing. However, the (Truly) Evil Twin? didn't like it and professed it to be an "impossible at best" combination of ribbons. Now that we have far better scans to work with, lets see if he will change his mind...

[HeikoGrusdat]

I will give the shame on to my girlfriend which bought it for me as a gift... I was very surprised and after checking the materials a bit hopeful as well. The seller gave her the little iron cross seperatly because it went off, one of the 2 prongs on the back is missing. It was not on the auction picture she showed me later on and it was not mentioned...but it fits perfectly and I would say it has been there before.

[Stogieman]

Here's the thing I liked about this bar, despite Rick's admonishment. These 9mm. ribbons are not "on the market" and I have yet to see a fake with this type of ribbon. All the swords are the "normal" ones and they all match and are of the "pre-war" type. A detail often overlooked by some of the more "creative" fakers.

[HeikoGrusdat]

yes you are right - and as I said all cloth materials do not glow, there is a yellow thread under the grey cloth with which the ribbons are sewn together and it does not glow, too.... who would use 70 year old thread for faking a bar of this unusual type which is really the first one I every had with these small ribbons.... I don`t think so.

[Stogieman]

Well, let's be careful with that... I see literally hundreds of suspect bars and nothing glows. Not the ribbons, the backing nor the thread. On any given day you can purchase all the original, WW2 era FG thread you could ever want.....

[webr55]

I saw this one too before it suddenly disappeared!

But I also have my doubts:

- Why the second RAO ribbon? A General Honor Decoration? But in this place, behind the Silesian Eagle?

- Schaumburg-Lippe with swords? Sachsen-Meiningen with swords?

- #6 seems to be the 1870, as there are no swords. But this guy was still going strong in WW1, yet not a very high ranking officer (RAO4). With the Gen. Honor Decor. even an up-through-the ranks former NCO, born ca. 1850. Possible????

Doubts remain.

Edited February 7, 2006 by webr55

[Claudio]

Hi Stogie,

I am sorry to say that but such ribbons (9mm) ARE on the market. My brother has about 5 or 6 of them, of course original, but these are still to be found on the market. Many of these ribbons were used as laces for larger neck ribbons for orders to be worn on the collar.

Nevertheless I like the material being used for this Feldspange; swords, metal pieces, type of fabric used on the backing. On the other hand we should closely to the combination of the medals and ask ourselves is such combination is possible.

I saw some pictures of Generals or even Generalfeldmarschalls (like von Blomberg for example) wearing such narrow type of ribbons.

Heiko; I can only hope and cross my fingers for you that this Feldspange is a good one!

Nowadays I don't really want only to trust my instinct anymore... I was fooled a couple of times, unfortunately also with ribbon bars...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Looking it better I noticed that some swords are on the ribbons of decorations that they would need them and on the other hand on some ribbons that you might or must have the swords, there aren't... strange!

... whoops just read now webr55's comments; I do understand your point and fully agree with you.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Schießplatzmeister]

[attachmentid=26528]

Hello folks:

Here is an example of a fellow who added his Johanniter Orden to his ribbon bar. This is the only one like it that I has seen until now. So Heiko, this is definately possible for a ribbon bar, although not proper. This is probably what the black ribbon is on your ribbon bar. This must not have been too uncommon as someone was making devices for this Order for the ribbon bars.

Thanks,

"SPM"

[Schießplatzmeister]

[attachmentid=26529]

Hello again:

Just so I don't tick off Stogieman and Rick Research, I have included a scan of the reverse. The maker's tag is for "Max Weise". The moths had a nice snack on the backing at some point in the past! This piece came from a Russian ex-pat from an accumulation out of Russia. So, it was probably a WWII Soviet "vet pick-up/bring-back".

"SPM"

[Guest Rick Research]

Boggle boggle

oh happy if baffling day.

I have NEVER, EVER seen any REAL Johanniter Order German ribbon bar

before today.

Just now.

Here.

It is... I am baffled... absolutely IMPOSSIBLE.

There it is.

SPM's bar screams "Infantry Regiment 96 Major" at me, but a quick flip through 1912-14 doesn't turn him up, so he must have moved on. As a M1915 bar, all those awards should show up in the 1914 Rank List... somewhere. (What city is the label for?)

Ranking the "impossible" JO ahead of the Red Eagle Order also is contrary to the "ranking" of those Orders... but there it is.

I am working on a new and improved and revised and expanded Ribbon Bar Article and could really use THIS bar therein. If agreeable, let me know by PM how you would like credit acknowledged.

While I try to FIND this guy. Because putting his NAME back on this will Confirm And Reveal All.

Same thing with Heiko's tiny huuuuuge bar. (Is that an "1870" or "1914" device?)

The last two ribbons in there before the 1897 Centenary aren't Silesian Eagle and another Red Eagle-- they are Hannover's 1866 Langensalza Medal and one of the MANY 1903-13 Hannoverian Regiments' Jubilee Medals. This ?Oberstleutnant aD was a veteran of 1866 against Prussian, 1870 for Prussia, and surely recalled out of retirement for WW1. Now that I see the back I like it better-- despite the misapplication of swords and not swords which may well confuse things in making the identification of this original wearer.

But I could not get over that JOHANNITER ribbon.

Neither of these on both bars makes any sense whatsoever.

But there they are.

A word of caution:

FAKE, FRAUDULENT, FRANKENSTEIN ribbon bars abound out there with black ribbons and Johanniter devices. Most are, I suspect, using Austrian or Vatican Malta Order parts. Fake Malta devices/ribbons are-- like SS runes--usually an immediate instantaneous Back Away sign of grabage.

These TWO-- and ONLY these two, that I have ever seen, seem bizarrely to be real.

Identificactions may be key. Although Hannover seems as unlikely as Thuringia, it may turn out that these are in fact NOT the Protestant Johanniter Order, but the Catholic Malta Order. They should still NOT be on there-- and certainly not in the positions they occupy on these two bars.

But do.

Boggle

boggle.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Rick,

thanks to you and all the others for the information so far... unfortunately I am not able to read the EK if it is 14 or 70 - it is too small and too "stonewashed"... but if you are right it must be a 1870 EK. A soldier from Hannover became then prussian soldier in 1870 war and made his way... of course it must then be a regimental medal and not a second eagle or general honour - sometimes you need a bit longer for the easy things... Maybe some day the big medal bar appears on the scene - then we can read his name on the Langensalza medal....

greetings

Heiko

[Guest Rick Research]

Daniel will have to track the 19th century fellow-- my references are too sparce for the Heiko bar.

But I have, I think, a possible "suspect" (and I emphasize suspect) for SPM's ribbon bar--

Emmery von Lorck

born 30 September 1866 Berlin

died of war-induced exhaustion 15 December 1916 Gera

Hauptmann 14.9.00 Ff in Inf Regt 84

charakterisiert Major zD 1.10.12

in 1914 Melde-Amt Schleiz duty officer under Landwehr-Bezirkskommando Gera

holding

Red Eagle 4 (2nd ribbon)

Reuss Honor Cross 3rd Class with Crown (5th ribbon)

Saxe-Ernestine House Order-Knight 1st Class (6th ribbon-- received by him 1913/14)

Prussian XXV Years Long Service Cross (7th ribbon)

1897 Kaiser Wilhelm Centenary Medal (8th ribbon)

Ribbon #4, Schwarzburg Honor Cross, only had triple oakleaves (with "19 14 15" on full size-- these are Baden Z?hringen Lion "make dos" certainly) as a World War One "militrary war effort" distinction

Likewise, Ribbon #3 COULD be either peacetime Waldeck orrrrrrrrrr..... given the other awards and the fact that Greiz also came under LWB Gera-- a Reuss award on "war ribbon."

Emmery von Lorck WW1 war service was as a Battalion commander in Inf Rgt 332, then Military Member of the Hospital Commision at Fritzlar, and finally back to Landwehrbezirk Gera as a staff officer. This suggest a hospital connection which MAY have made a 1915 Johanniter possible, as well as the sort of small-state home wartime service that would explain Ribbons #3 and #4.

He left behind his widow Helene n?e von Rumohr, eldest son Willibald (1891-1918) who died of illness as a Kriegsfreiwilliger, second son Lt aD Karl, and youngest son Kraft, as well as daughters Nora and Gerda. They were living in Marburg in 1921.

Emmery's only sibling, older brother Charly (yes, Charly) was killed in action as an Oberstleutnant zD in 1914.

They were the only children of Rittmesiter aD (died 1901) Karl Lorck, who was ennobled as a Lieutenant in the Prussian Garde-Husaren Regiment in 1861.

So despite its now ratty appearance, this was a ribbon bar--if I am correct-- that was actually only worn for about ONE YEAR, 1915-16.

Von Lorck is ringing dim, distant bells. Something has come up with this family before. Those of you who travel around to other places might well want to try searching on the family name. I seem to recall doing SOME sort of research in THIS family before... a sword maybe? Something.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm going to try to pluck Heiko's guy out of the "Retired Oberstleutnants Recalled" part of the Honor Rank List, from the "**" there indicating 1866 AND 1870 veterans.

back in a bit.

Well, working from the assumption that the Red eagle is most likely 4th and the Crown most likely 3rd, I checked and ther were only 3 Oberstleutnants, 3 Obersten, and 14 generalmajore (assuming maybe a retiree with a REO3 with Bow--too tiny for 9 mm!!!) and--

no matches found, or not in the Orders Almanac to eliminate as suspects.

So THAT didn't work as a way to get around looking in 1880-90s Rank Lists I don't have.

[Schießplatzmeister]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! Yes folks, we have a winner!

Hats off to Rick Research!

The tag on the back of the ribbon bar has "Max Weise/ GERA/ TEL...(unreadable)". You have convinced me beyond any doublt that this is v. Lorck's ribbon bar. I am very grateful for the information that you have provided!

You will be most welcome to utilize the piece for publication. A PM will follow.

Thanks,

"SPM"

[Stogieman]

I told him......... I told him I liked it. I told him my "gut call" was "right as rain". I told him SPM posted a Johanniter...........

BUT NO!!

Did he Listen to me? NO!

I am so alone...............

[Guest Rick Research]

Fake "SS"/real "SS" -- 2,000,000/6

Fake "JO"/real "JO" -- 35,000/2

And I still cannot EXPLAIN this.

Boggle

boggle

[Bob Hunter]

Looks good for you, Heiko, I hope Rick can put a name to your bar.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

SPM, wow, that's a first.

[Pete A]

Great bars and and excellent research!

It would be nice to know why Karl Lorck, a mere Lieutenant, was ennobled? Did Prussia use the system where one could have been ennobled for the deeds of his father, like in Russia and Sweden?

Pete

[Daniel Krause]

Schie?platzmeisters bar is also the 1st one I see with the Schwarzburg oakleaves!!!

There were just a few awards of them!!!

Heiko?s bar is a hit!!! I will see if I can dig out a bit. Actually, there were pleeenty of old retired guys which were NOT listed in the ERL 1926!! Rick, You remember Bavarian Freih.v.Enderndorf?!? ... adn I found now lots more of retired and recalled LtCol or Col while looking for a Baden combo.

Heiko, I will see what I can do but it might cost a time.. orr our database superheroes like Andy Baus of Werner Nickel have this combo already saved in their PC.

Best regards

Daniel

[HeikoGrusdat]

Thanks for the help Daniel , I have all time of the world and I am happy for every single identified bar in my collection - tomorrow or in 10 years.... !!!! If there is anything I can do please let me know.

[webr55]

Rick's memory serves him right: He has researched Emmery von Lorck before. There are pics of Emmery and his father in this thread:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9683

I have copied what Rick found out 4 years ago:

Prussian Garde-Husaren Regiment Lieutenant Karl Lorck was Emmery's and Charly's father, ennobled as "von Lorck" in 1861. The family crest is described as 3 "natural" Lorcks-- "Norwegian waterfowl."

Charly von Lorck was born in Berlin 19 March 1862. I'll get earlier careers on both ODDLY named brothers, but in 1914 he was charakterisiert Oberstleutnant zur Disposition (1.10.13) on staff of Landwehr Bezirk Hagen, holder of the Prussian Red Eagle Order 4th Class, XXV Years Long Service Cross, and 1897 Centenary Medal. (He was a Major in Inf Rgt 56 in 1908). He was killed in action 7 December 1914 on the regimental staff of Reserve Inf Rgt 220 at Rzegocina near Cracow, leaving widow Margarete von Puttkamer and daughters Glenny and Ingeborg.

Emmery von Lorck was born 30 September 1866 in Berlin. In 1914 he was a charakterisiert Major zD (1.10.12) in charge of Reporting Office Schleiz under Landwehrbezirk Kommando Gera, holding Prussian Red Eagle Order 4th Class, XXV Years Service Cross, 1897 Centenary Medal, Reuss (Younger Line) Honor Cross 3rd Class with Crown, and Saxe-Ernestine House Order-Knight 1st Class.

He went into the field as a battalion commander in Res Inf Rgt 332, then was on the Military Hospital Commission in Fritzlar, and finally on the Staff of landwehrbezirks Kommando Gera, where he died 15 December 1916 of exertions related to war service. He left his widow Helene von Rumohr, eldest son Willibald (born 25.6.1891 Schleswig, law student, died of illness in Marburg an der Lahn 19.4.1918 having served as a War Volunteer in J?ger Baon 4), 2nd son Karl, Leutnant dR survived war, and two daughters--

NORA, and Gerda.

Sources:

Rank Lists, German Orders Almanac, 1921 "Helden-Gedenkmappe."

Both were originally commissioned in Schleswig Inf Rgt 84: in 1890 Charly was detached as an instructor at the Haupt-Kadetten-Anstalt, Berlin-Lichterfelde.

Charly was Hauptmann 1.9.1896 U2u, from at least 1902 to 1908 as chief of 7th Company/ Inf Rgt 56. He had only the 1897 Medal in 1902.

Emmery was Hauptmann 14.9.00 Ff, in 1902 chief of 6th Co./Inf Rgt 84, but by 1907 zD at Schleiz/Gera (no awards but the 1897 Medal then-- he did FANTASTIC for a "part timer"!!!) where he still was in 1914.