Imperial German Pilot's Badge... in Cloth.

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

I've finally got my scanner up and running so thought I'd post this badge. I'd put it in a couple of the other threads but not in it's own. I'm hoping against hope to find out more about this piece. I've been trying for ages and so far no one's seen another one like it.

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[Hauptmann]

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I got this one back in the mid 80's or thereabouts. My folks were looking to buy a place up near us in North Florida at the time. They went through a realtor out of Quincy Florida. When we were at his office I happened to notice on one of his bookcases that he had a set of Imperial German wound badges. Turns out, he bought houses to restore and had found a box the size of a small shoebox in the attic of one of those houses. He was not into militaria and only kept that set out as keepsakes. I happened to have a black powder rifle... modern and one that I only had $90 in, including all accessories, powder, etc. He wanted the rifle but was not intro'd in the rest. He offered to trade his box for it. In amongst several full sets of Imperial wound badges, as well as a few extra black and silver ones, some WWI British and American aviation items, WWI French train tickets, etc. was this Imperial pilots badge in cloth in it's issue packet.

Needless to say the first time I saw it in the box and removed it from the packet I about fell over. I'd never seen the like before or since. Oh I'd seen the cloth IC's which I think are ugly as sin, and the WWII badges in cloth but never an Imperial badge.

To say I love this piece is an understatement. I've no earthly idea what it's worth and don't believe I'd ever part with it. To me at least it's one of those once (or few) in a lifetime finds that just don't pop up very often... if ever.

If anyone has any additional info on this piece, has ever seen one, perhaps has a picture of one being worn... I'd be very grateful if you'd post same. Also if anyone has any specific requests for views on this one please don't hesitate to ask. I'm happy to try to get closeups, etc. Just let me know and your wish is my command.

Thanks,

Dan

[Deruelle]

Hi,

This is the first time I see a pilot's badge in cloth for the WW1. I know that Prussian used cloth version for Johanniter cross, but not for a medal like the Prussian pilot's badge.

Christophe

[Hauptmann]

Hi,

This is the first time I see a pilot's badge in cloth for the WW1. I know that Prussian used cloth version for Johanniter cross, but not for a medal like the Prussian pilot's badge.

Christophe

Bonjour Christophe,

I'm very my in the same boat on this one. Never seen another in all my years of collecting or studying such things. I keep hoping someone out there will pop up and tell us about it.

Here's what Rick (Stogieman) said over at the Aerodrome Forum:

"These were made in cloth. However this is unlike any I have seen. Normally, when a cloth badge shows up it's in bullion/wire not bevo thread. First thing I would do is hit it with a blacklight. if it glows, bad apple. If it doesnm't, we'll need much better images. A high-density scan would be best so we can see it straight on. Good Luck"

And of course that was well before I had my scanner. I'm getting ready to pop a set of the scanned pics up on my thread over there. And I did test it under black light... absolutely no glow!

But it's a beautiful piece... well made and in this case from what I can tell never worn. When I got it it was in it's original issue packet as shown. You can still see the imprint it made on same... that distinct oval shape. I've had several people make offers on it over time but not for many years now. They were mostly in the $100 to $200 range but I figure it's got to be worth more than that. I may be wrong as I know some rare things just don't bring the bucks you'd think. But in a category where Imperial pilots, etc. badges bring what they do and are as desireable as they are... and as no one I can find has ever seen or heard of one exactly like this... I just put two and two together. Plus I think if I ever parted with it I would never be able to sleep at night. This, IMHOP is one of my all time greatest finds... and not many of those to begin with. And to find it complete with it's packet? How often does that happen. Methinks this is definitely one to be passed down for a loooooong time.

Dan

[Daniel Murphy]

Dan,

I do not know whether yours is real or not, But it looks like a possible. There is no wear, but this makes sense if in the original packet. Here is one I cam across for sale some time back (Weitze?)and saved the images for reference. Front.

Dan

[Daniel Murphy]

Dan,

No offense but I like this one better. Reverse

[Daniel Murphy]

And just to add a little fuel to the fire...... I have had this for a few years. Can't say whether it is real or not, but I like it. The crown is padded just like an imperial naval officers cap insignia. It appears to have been well worn. Yes I know it is missing the ribbons (never had them), bullion pieces are not well known for following the design exactly.

Dan

[Daniel Murphy]

Reverse.

[Hauptmann]

Hi Dan,

Wow! Thanks for all the pics. First I've seen other than mine. And also love the Zep badge. Great pieces.

I don't suppose you by chance remember the price on the one you pictured that you'd found for sale? Again I have no earthly idea what these run.

And no offense taken on your liking the other one better. But personally I still think mine stands out. May just be that I'm used to it, but the one you pictured seems to be off in it's proportions. Also mine seems more colorful.

As to the authenticity... I've never had any doubt. The gentleman who found it was a realtor with absolutely no interest in militaria whatsoever. It was found in a small shoebox sized box in the eaves of an attic of a very old house down in North Florida... where of course alot of retirees go... well to Florida in general. So perhaps a WWI vet back in the day moved down there to retire, had the box in the attic, it got shoved back, forgotten and sat waiting for him to find it. It had tons of other period militaria from the allies as well as Germany... all to the period and all totally authentic. And as many years ago as this was I don't think the fakers tended to make such things with their issue packets. Even with what's printed on the packet... basically a watchmaker and goldsmith or jeweler... just don't think the fakers were or even are that good unless they're copying and original to the t.

With the way it was stored in the packet and again in the box... the aging, wear, etc. all look absolutely correct. It does not react in any way under a black light. I just can't find anything about it that either detracts or makes me doubt it's being totally and 1,000% original.

To me, it's just a case of knowing the story behind it. I mean in Gordon's book on IC's he pictured one of the cloth IC's which again I think is just the ugliest thing. If I was a German officer or solder with that award I would not have been caught dead wearing one of the cloth versions. If snagging was a big concern I'd have gotten one of the stitch on versions and worn that. But in the case of this pilot's badge, I feel it fits in with the idea of style and class back then. It just looks great... don't know how else to say it. I love it as much now as I did the first day I set eyes on it. And believe you me, when he opened the box and I saw it it was all I could do to not show how excited I was and perhaps cause him to rethink the deal. I'm sure that one piece alone was worth far more than I had in the whole deal. Figure... I traded him the modern blackpowder rifle that I'd bought for $90 with all the accessories. I kept the accessories which alone were probably worth at least $50 by themselves. And considering that I managed to sell or trade off most of the other items from the box and came out perhaps $500 to $600 on all that I think I did quite well.

Anyhow again, many thanks for posting those pics. At least now I know there are others. And I hope still more pop out of the wood work. I think they're beautiful pieces and can only hope some further information comes out on them as I'd love to know their history as much as any of the other medals or badges from either war.

Thanks again,

Dan

[Daniel Murphy]

This is interesting. I just got a PM from a member of another forum I belong to. It states

Hi Daniel, ........I saw the photo of your cloth Zeppelin badge on the ' other ' forum (Gentlemans Military interest club). Is there any possibilty you would consider selling the badge?? Name your price !! ( within reason) Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Since I could not guarantee the originality of the badge (and the fact that I like it ) I passed. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

Dan

PS;

Dan,

Basically what it boils down to, on something like this is type of construction, the materials used in the construction, and the quality of construction. Often the best one can do is to say that it is probably original. From what I see here yours has a good looking wartime weave (it appears)of Feldgrau with a proper light "canvas" cloth backing. Then there is good quality work in two colors and several textures. Then you have the original packet and a provenance (that some one else may or may not believe). So there is an excellent chance it is real. I would wager it was a GI that brought it back though, not a doughboy, c. 1944-46. That is where most of the bagged daggers and badges in packets came from when the makers factories were overrun.

Edited August 24, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Hauptmann]

This is interesting. I just got a PM from a member of another forum I belong to. It states

Since I could not guarantee the originality of the badge (and the fact that I like it ) I passed. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

Dan

PS;

Dan,

Basically what it boils down to, on something like this is type of construction, the materials used in the construction, and the quality of construction. Often the best one can do is to say that it is probably original. From what I see here yours has a good looking wartime weave (it appears)of Feldgrau with a proper light "canvas" cloth backing. Then there is good quality work in two colors and several textures. Then you have the original packet and a provenance (that some one else may or may not believe). So there is an excellent chance it is real. I would wager it was a GI that brought it back though, not a doughboy, c. 1944-46. That is where most of the bagged daggers and badges in packets came from when the makers factories were overrun.

Hi Dan,

On part one... this is really weird. I've had my cloth badge posted forever and a day over at the Aerodrome Forum and hadn't had a ton of response over there. When I did the scans and posted here I put in the scans over there as well. I got a reply today and actually wrote a response in which I put a link to this post here and mentioned your having posted the pics of your Zep as well as the Pilots Badge. Funny thing is, I got buried in work and didn't have time to post it until just a second ago.

Wait... listen... is that... is that the Twilight Zone theme I hear playing in the background?

So... no idea where it came from but had to be someone else. All I can say is... small world!

Shoot... sure wish I could get that kind of response on the stuff I've had listed for sale. Arrrrrgh!

On part two... I'll have to take your word on the weaves and such... never specialized to that degree, but again that's why I felt it was important to post both here and the AF in order to get more expert opinions. As to originality, to be honest I've "never" doubted that it is indeed authentic and original. My biggest thing was having never seen it... in refs, auctions, catalogs, museums... you name it. Seems everything else German from either war had a book written about it... but this piece didn't even get an honerable mention. But I figured there just "had" to be someone out there that knew "something".

Anyhow here's a link to my post over at the AF. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that more info will come to light.

As far as it coming home with a WWII vet... of course it's very possible. But if this was the case I can't for the life of me imagine why everything in the box, down to the French railway tickets, the box of razor blades, the boxes, basically everything in the box dated to WWI. Not one item was from the postwar period (that I can tell) or from WWII.

I still have the matchbooks, blades, tickets, etc. as well as a full set of the wounds which I've previously posted in my Wound Badge posts. Everything in the box was totally authentic and to the period.

Plus, to me it would make sense that a doughboy (or other allied vet) who perhaps was an MP or in another position where he would have dealt with prisoners could possible have traded or taken such items which would easily fit in his pockets and could easily and cheaply have been shipped home periodically... or even in one grouping. There was nothing "big" in the box. Only such small items that again could easily fit in a pocket or pockets. Perfect souvenirs.

Had it been a WWII GI I'd have thought he would have mostly gone after WWII period badges, medals, insignia, etc. At least that seems to be most of what I've seen come out of such vet groups.

But again, anything is possible. I'm trying to be open minded about it. But as I stated in my post at the AF... unless someone shows me evidence to the fact that it's not original I just find it hard to believe that it's anything but original. I just can't believe in that entire box with as many items as were in it, all totally, absolutely authentic, that this would be the only item that was fake... with no motivation of a big profit for the seller... who knew nothing of nor had any interest in military at all. Plus the fact... I've never seen a packet marked like this. Only LDO's from the TR period and generally from both wars the ones where the title of the award was printed on the packet. This one states it's from a Clockmaker or Watchmaker and Goldsmith or "jeweler" and gives his address. Would a faker honestly have the brains to come up with something like this? And not having seen similar examples... at least assuming they're not common... wouldn't they have simply popped the name of the award on the packet as that would be what most folks would be familiar with?

To me... far too many things scream original on this set. I'll go so far as to say if I'm wrong... then all the study, experience, expense in references, trips to museums, seeing other collections, etc., have all been in vain and I've not learned a thing.

Well, here's hoping something will come out of the woodwork. I'd LOVE to see pics of this or similar cloth badges in use during the period in question. Shoot... even postwar or TR period.

Here's hoping!

Dan

Edited August 24, 2006 by Hauptman

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Roderick, another member over at the AF made some interesting observations re: Metz:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthre...ed=1#post286637

I decided to go scanner happy (as if I'd not already reached that stage ) and do pics of the other items I still have (save the wound badge set as those I've already posted) that came in the box with the pilots badge and it's packet.

Here's the pics:

First, yet another clue... a matchbook:

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In all these years I never realized the connection between these and the packet with the address in Metz.

[Hauptmann]

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Swedish matches:

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[Hauptmann]

French railway tickets:

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[Hauptmann]

French matches:

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[Hauptmann]

Razor blades:

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[Hauptmann]

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I wish I had at least taken photographs of the entire contents of the box. There were some allied aviation pieces... dog tags, insignia, a roll of film which showed what appeared to be a dog fight if I remember correctly... some British items. Just been so long I can't really remember in detail. And then several full sets of Imperial German wound badges as well as several partial black and silver sets. There were quite a number all told.

And of course, the cloth Pilots badge in the packet.

Anyhow, there you have it. Hope these help shed some light on all this. And in any event I've always thought these were great items on their own merit. And they certainly add alot to a First World War display.

Dan

[Daniel Murphy]

Dan,

My apologies. I did not know everything in the box was identifiable as WW1, that is why I stated maybe WW2. The fact is if it was made in Metz, say for the sake of arguement, pre '45. It would have had to be made 1914-1919 or 1940-1945. I do not see much of a need for a WW1 pilot (who by 1940 would most likely be of staff officer rank or higher) to have a need for something like this during WW2. In addition the majority would be wearing the retired pilots badge as did Goering in the 30's. Then figure the number who were still in the army (and not the luftwaffe) and needed the field gray backer and I would say the need for this between '40-'45 would amount to maybe one man or about .005 % of men who were WW1 pilots. As far as photographic evidence goes, this would be great. However I have never seen a WW1 photo of someone wearing a bullion EK1, but a very few real ones exist.

Basically, with these you have to look at the things I stated above and make a judgement call or use your gut instinct. We know for a fact that they had bullion EK1s and pilot badges in WW2. Mostly used by Luftwaffe flight and paratroop personel. We have the photographic evidence. But, as far as originality goes, you still have to make that judgement call. "Do I like this enough to pay $XXX for it?" is often what it boils down to. You can post something like this and have half the people say its real and the other half say it's not. I posted a WW2 gold grade snipers badge here some time back that i have had for over 20 years. To my knowledge not one person replied to that post. I don't know about you, but that is an indication to me that it is not a fake. If anyone thought it was fake, they would have blasted it. Over 100 people looked at it, likely thought "Damn, that looks good, but i'm really not 100% sure" and made no comment. The same thing is going on here, have you noticed. As far as this thread is concerned, it would seem we are the only ones here.

Dan

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Hauptmann]

Dan,

My apologies. I did not know everything in the box was identifiable as WW1, that is why I stated maybe WW2. The fact is if it was made in Metz, say for the sake of arguement, pre '45. It would have had to be made 1914-1919 or 1940-1945. I do not see much of a need for a WW1 pilot (who by 1940 would most likely be of staff officer rank or higher) to have a need for something like this during WW2. to be continued.

Hi Dan,

Hey, no apologies necessary. Just happy this thing is finally getting some air time so to speak. If anyone should apologize it's me... for not making the connection between the award packet address and that match book. In all these years it's never hit me until today. Just never put that much significance on it. But all it takes is one small key to open a big lock and hence a large door.

What you say makes perfect sense to me so far and I totally agree. I'd see little reason for an elderly WWI pilot in a staff or higher position to wear one of these. Again to me all signs still point to it being a WWI period piece. Not that I'm closing any doors but it just seems logical given all the evidence I currently have.

Oh if only a picture would show up. What I wouldn't give short of my soul to see a shot of a WWI pilot wearing this during the war. It would make several of my years believe me as this has been a mystery for a long time, with only Judge Crater, Amelia Earhart, Flight 19 and Jimmy Hoffa winning a higher place on the food chain for me.

I'll continue to stay tuned to this bat channel for further developments.

Many thanks,

Dan

[Naxos]

Dan, that is a very interesting cloth Fliegerabzeichen.

If Mr. Zeiger indeed had the badge for sale it could have only been between 1914 and 1918 since after the war Metz became french again until 1940.

During the German occupation (1940 to 1944) the currency would have been RM = Reichsmark and not M = Mark.

Based on the circumstantial evidence I say the cloth badge is a period item from 14/18.

from: Wikipedia

By the Treaty of Frankfurt of 1871, Metz became a German city, and was made a most important garrison and a strong fortress. Despite the departure of many inhabitants who fled to France to avoid living under German rule, Metz nonetheless expanded and transformed during the period of German rule. The fortifications on the south and east were levelled in 1898, securing space for growth and development. Some large neo-Romanesque buildings typical of the German empire appeared in the city. Following the armistice with Germany ending the First World War, the French army entered Metz in November 1918 to great cheering from the population, and the city was returned to France at the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Metz was again annexed by Germany between 1940 and 1944 during the Second World War, and was liberated in November 1944 by the French and American armies.

Regards, Hardy

Edited December 29, 2006 by Naxos

[Hauptmann]

Dan, that is a very interesting cloth Fliegerabzeichen.

If Mr. Zeiger indeed had the badge for sale it could have only been between 1914 and 1918 since after the war Metz became french again until 1940.

During the German occupation (1940 to 1944) the currency would have been RM = Reichsmark and not M = Mark.

Based on the circumstantial evidence I say the cloth badge is a period item from 14/18.

from: Wikipedia

By the Treaty of Frankfurt of 1871, Metz became a German city, and was made a most important garrison and a strong fortress. Despite the departure of many inhabitants who fled to France to avoid living under German rule, Metz nonetheless expanded and transformed during the period of German rule. The fortifications on the south and east were levelled in 1898, securing space for growth and development. Some large neo-Romanesque buildings typical of the German empire appeared in the city. Following the armistice with Germany ending the First World War, the French army entered Metz in November 1918 to great cheering from the population, and the city was returned to France at the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Metz was again annexed by Germany between 1940 and 1944 during the Second World War, and was liberated in November 1944 by the French and American armies.

Regards, Hardy

Hi Hardy,

Sorry for the late reply. Been up to my ears and just now trying to catch up again. Many thanks for the great info. Every little bit helps... here's hoping that some day a picture will pop up with this badge being worn... or at least one very similar to it. I've loved this piece since the day I got it and consider it one of my all time best finds. I think it's a beautiful well made piece and in great shape especially considering it's age.

Thanks again!

Dan

[ccj]

Hi all,

I've finally got my scanner up and running so thought I'd post this badge. I'd put it in a couple of the other threads but not in it's own. I'm hoping against hope to find out more about this piece. I've been trying for ages and so far no one's seen another one like it.

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The pilot's badge look real to me. I like the detail of the badge. I have read that the Germans had EKIs, pilot and observer badges in cloth. I've seen only a few pilot badges in cloth and all have been different. I would think most cloth badges would have a certain level of variation being hand made and made by different makers.

[Hauptmann]

The pilot's badge look real to me. I like the detail of the badge. I have read that the Germans had EKIs, pilot and observer badges in cloth. I've seen only a few pilot badges in cloth and all have been different. I would think most cloth badges would have a certain level of variation being hand made and made by different makers.

Hi Charles,

Many thanks for the comments. If you happen to run across any pics of other such badges please pop them on as I've only seen on other one which at least in my mind didn't have the quality of mine. I'm thinking perhaps it was an NCO's or simply a lower priced version as I have a feeling these would have been custom private purchase items.

Really like you avatar. I've always been into Von Richtofen and his red Tripe.

Welcome to the club.

Dan

[Stogieman]

Well, I've never had a cloth one... but this bullion one was woven on cloth... does it count? ;>)

[Hauptmann]

Well, I've never had a cloth one... but this bullion one was woven on cloth... does it count? ;>)

Hi Rick,

"Nice" piece! Can you show a shot of the back if there's anything of interest there?

I'm beginning to not feel quote so alone as I've been with mine all these years. Now if only someone can find a pic or pics of these being worn during the period... that would be fantastic!

Thanks for sharing!

Happy New Year!

Dan