Ribbon bars from Saxony

[Claudio]

Another saxon ribbon bar...

[Claudio]

A nice Saxon NCO's ribbon bar with "Knopflochschnalle".

[Claudio]

Reuss-Saxony ribbon bars...

[Claudio]

We could say that this is also "Saxon"... this is a very large ribbon bar of a still "unknown" officer. The seller didn't want to tell me the name of the wearer, since he promised the owner's family complete discretion. He just said to me that he was an officer of a family with ancient military tradition. Among his family members there were some highly decorated senior officers. The medal bar was unfortunately sold separately... also tried to bid on it but I was unlucky! I can't always win...

Edited December 4, 2005 by Claudio

[Claudio]

This is the medal bar... it was also a beautiful tailored "Godet" spange!!!! If I only think what I missed here... I should have bid much, much more and today the price wouldn't have been to high!

[Claudio]

I own this Saxon medal since a long time... Godet!

? Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse (OEK 1909)

? Kriegverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern (OEK 3836)

? Sachsen-K?nigreich, RK St. Heinrich-Orden (OEK 2088)

? Sachsen-K?nigreich, Zivildienstorden RK 2. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 2155)

? Sachsen-K?nigreich, Albrechtsorden 2. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 2212)

? S?chsiche Herzogt?mer ab 1826, RK 2. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 2478)

? Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803)

? ?sterreich, 1. WK Erinnerungsmedaille

? Luftschutz-Ehrenzeichen, 2. Stufe (OEK 3509)

? Deutsches Schutzwall-Ehrenzeichen, 1939 (OEK 3520)

? Ungarn, 1. WK Erinnerungsmedaille

[Claudio]

My favorite Saxon medal bar (thanks to Stogie ).

Ordenspange Maj. z.D. Kurt Oertmann, IR 102 (Sachsen), St.Heinrich-Orden, RK am 07.05.1918

Albrechts-Orden, RK 1. Kl. mit Kr. & Schwertern am 24.08.1917:

? Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse (OEK 1909)

? Sachsen-K?nigreich, RK St. Heinrich-Orden (OEK 2088)

? Sachsen-K?nigreich, Albrechtsorden 1. Kl. mit Krone und Schwertern (OEK 2209)

? Sachsen-K?nigreich, Albrechtsorden 2. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 2212)

? Bayern, BMVO 4. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 411)

? Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803)

? Bayern, BMVO 4. Kl. am Friendensband (OEK 409)

? DA 2. Klasse f?r 18 Dienstjahre (OEK 3853)

? DA 4. Klasse f?r 4 Dienstjahre (OEK 3855)

[Bob Hunter]

Claudio, gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous!

[Bob Hunter]

Another Saxon with the FAM on the non-combatant ribbon. It's a bit weathered but the campaign clasp is not. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? I'll post a close up for comment.

[Bob Hunter]

reverse

[Bob Hunter]

Here is the campaign bar. Does it appear to be a little too crisp for the surrounding ribbons? Heiko, are you up?

[HeikoGrusdat]

sorry I don`t know the word "crisp" but it looks a bit too new.... but the clasp Beaumont would match for saxon units.

Heiko

[Bob Hunter]

Sorry, Heiko, the word "crisp" is idomatic English for nice, new, etc. I should have said it the bars looks a little too new and I think you agree but not enough to make a determination on it's authenticity.

[Guest Rick Research]

GOOD fire-gilding stays that way well... almost forever. I've got ancient shoulder boards in the back pages someplace that are 100+ years old. The boards are in great shape, but look it, but the fire-gilt insignia is as good as the day they were made:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=2...indpost&p=22087

Now, that Saxon bar is also 100 years old-- the Friedrich August Medal was only created in 1905, so that medal bar was made 1905+. There would have been a ready market as long as the 1870 veterans were alive in large numbers for such bars, not that the decade between 1895 and 1905 means much at our remove from then. Since the wearer had to have his PRE-1905 trio remounted when he got the 1905+ medal (keeping his old issued medals and re-ribboning), chances are the prongy bar he had earlier got replaced too. I have never tried but I don't think the prongs on back of the little Spangen were meant for much on and off so much as just staying on once.

My sword collecting friend has swords going back into the 1870s with fire-gilding that can be just as good as the day it was done. Tends not to be, on items like swords that have been roughly handled and frequently carelessly cleaned. But nobody ever polished/cleaned the little Spange on that medal bar, or the devices on my shoulder boards. Top quality fire-gilding will not lose its freshness in such protected examples. Cheaper finishes will.

[Guest Rick Research]

Let us digress in a retrograde fashion (God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen):

A Saxon with Francophile tendencies, this one:

[attachmentid=18260]

These were indeed all one person's, though notice the lapel paraphenalia all have a single Albert Order. He must have thought it was good enough to make due as understatement.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

And the evidence for this is . . . ???

I'm sorry to make you angry Ed, if you wish to believe these are not made there, by all means, you are so entitled with all goodwill from me. It is merely my belief and as such will have no proof proffered.

[Bob Hunter]

I was only responding to Rick's comment based on information I had recieved from a fellow metalurgist who was in the area five years ago. Nothing more. No allusion to fakes intended.

[Guest Rick Research]

OK boys, get out your hankies! As the year ends in darkness and introspection, let us reflect upon the unhappy fate of Generalleutnant Erwin von R?mer, one of Saxony's most obscure WW1 aviators...

arrested by the Soviets BY MISTAKE (taken for a kinsman who, ironically, lived out a long and presumably happy life) and died in wrongful captivity.

[attachmentid=18261]

And here is Himself. Notice that the blue of his long service ribbons was noticably fading even during the war!

[attachmentid=18262]

Yes, "MY" ribbon bar-- not just ONE of his-- the one he is wearing in his portrait:

[attachmentid=18263]

A sad end and a terrible story which I can elaborate upon at epic length until you are all blubbing like babbies, so You Better Watch Out! Tis the season....

Of all the atrributable ribbon bars and emdal bars I own, I have only TWO which can be seen in such period wear portraits.

[Guest Rick Research]

BOTH Saxons, as it happens.

Generalmajor Johannes Hahn "sandwiched" his two native Saxon Orders with a BZ3bX in the middle. (Saxons, Saxons... weird fashion creatures!!!)

[attachmentid=18264]

[attachmentid=18267]

And Himself, wearing THIS ribbon bar (the positioning of the Xs on the ribbons and the peculiar "in the order received" rather than by seniority of decorations home/not-home and eagles are all an exact match)

[attachmentid=18266]

Although he had commanded a Security Regiment in Russia and been Commandant of Lyon and Pau, General Hahn escaped von R?mer's fate and died at the age of 81.

[Guest Rick Research]

Claudio-- group

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=3...indpost&p=36769

comes down to TWO possible recipients

Joachim von Geldern-Crispendorf of J?ger Bataillon 12, born 1891, charakterisiert Hauptmann aD. But he spent most of the war in staff positions and even if so severely wounded that he could not serve at the front in WW2, I'd have expected him to have been recalled zV for the same sorts of headquarters orderly officer jobs. Unfortunately there are too many "no first names" von Geldern-Crispendorfs then to be sure one was or was not him, but his "youthful" age in 1939 and military experience seem to exclude him.

Far more likely was

Adalbert Flaccus

born 24 December 1880 in Alterwald, Rheinprovinz. Also in Saxon J?ger Bataillon 12 (last KNOWN rank Lt dR 23.1.09 W), civil occupation Diplom Ingenieur (hmmmm, that Westwall.....)

StHO 29.4.17 as Oberlt dR and a company commander in JB 12 on the Macedonian front

SV3bX 24.12.16 (a nice birthday present!) as Oberlt dR in JB12

SA3bX 19.10.15 as Lt dR in JB 12

SEHO-R2X 20.5.16 as Oberlt dR in JB 12.

His St. Henry was earned amidst Turkish and Bulgarian troops, so I am surprised there is no Bulgarian WW1 Commemorative Medal. It is possible that this group was NOT his, but I'm at least 80% sure it was.

His age and unit fit, as well as that Westwall's likelihood.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Having had an opportunity to bring a couple of pieces home for pictures, I thought I would share the results before they go back to where they reside. Another visitor is posted on the W?rttemberg thread.

Following is a medal bar named to Freiherr Hermann Ludwig Adolph von Wangenheim, a Hannoverian who later served in the Saxon (during the 1870 war) and probably Prussian armies. His St. Henry knight badge was probably returned upon death; but why what was probably a Saxon long service decoration was replaced by a W?rttemberg war merit medal is a mystery.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Freiherr Hermann Ludwig Adolph von Wangenheim.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I am shocked at the fading on the Long Service ribbons in the forties. Never would have expected that so early.

[Guest Rick Research]

Hermann Freiherr von Wangenheim was born in Hasperde 20 September 1845. Also according to the 1908/09 Orders Almanac (which shows St Henry, EK 2 1870, Saxon XXV, and 1897) he was living in Marburg, Hesse.

He died in 1912-- that per the 1921 Heldengedenkmappe, which shows his widow Lilli n?e von Starck living in Wiesbaden. Their only son Friedrich (b.11.10.1890) was KIA 8.8.14 as a Prussian Leutnant in Dragoner Regiment 5. Their only daughter was the wife of a Major aD of unspecified first name Rabe von Pappenheim living in Goslar in 1921.

According to editor Prof. Dr. Georg Epstein's article in the 1906 first edition of the Orders Almanac (xeroxed for me by G.S. many years ago-- still with us, every day), on the wearing precedenece of and return of decorations after the recipients' deaths, Saxony DID require return of the St Henry Order. There is no specific mention of the long service awards, but oddly enough, most states did specifically require the return (to what purpose?) of all long service awards except usually the LD2.

[Wild Card]

Hi Rick,

Thank you for putting the personality with the bar - they?ve been apart too long. I do have a proper (1870) St. Henry and long service cross that I have thought of putting back on the bar; but something has always held me back. Somehow, I feel that leaving it ?as is? is more proper as this is probably how the family themselves changed it - just a matter of, perhaps misguided, respect.

Any thoughts? Thank you again.

Best wishes,

Wild Card